gregm Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 a couple things the public might be interested in about trail park fees: the same forest service basically subsidizes logging. most years the forest service spends twice as much building and maintaining logging roads as it collects in land use fees from loggers. look at the political background to the fees. the parking fees were apparently suggested and strongly supported by the american recreation coalition (arc). the arc is a lobby group funded by r.v., snowmobile, and dirt bike manufacturers. motorized use of the backcountry has come under fire (see yellowstone snowmobile debacle). the motorized users figure if they are paying to park on public lands it will garuantee their continued access despite the environmental consequences and public criticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attitude Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 NEWSTIPS said: How much would you estimate the average climber (is there such a thing) spends each year on climbing fees? In Washington: SnoPark Permit: $20 Groomed Trails Permit: $20 NW Forest Pass: $30 Washington Fish and Wildlife Parking Permit: $12 Mt. Rainier Annual Pass: $30 Mt. Rainier Annual Climbers Permit: $ 25 Mt. St. Helens & Mt. Adams Annual Climbing Permit: $30 Olympic National Park Annual Pass: $ 30 Olympic National Park Wilderness Use Fee: $ $5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To_The_Top Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 (edited) NEWSTIPS said: ehmmic said: Also, highlight that they use the fact that people buy the pass as evidence that it is working and should be continued. They require it or try to ticket you. How does this logic work? This is great. The mere fact that this one topic has so many of you steamed means there are literally hundreds more people of the same opinion. I wish there were an icon on here to show the can of worms I've opened with this query. FYI....I've started the phone calling process to do this story, but don't expect it to turn anytime soon. As Erik or Iain said, this is certainly something that will take a lot of groundwork before it makes it to the airwaves! I bet you could get a lot of information from people here. The amount of fees that climbers and or hikers spend could go as high as a few hundered dollars *edit*(see above post) if you count entrance fees and passes. Hikers and climbers pay just as much in taxes as other people do and then they get stuck paying extra for what is considered public lands. I think hikers/climbers got stuck with a lot of those fees because they may have seemed like easy targets and the budgets were slashed to the government agencies that administor the public lands. TTT Edited March 7, 2003 by To_The_Top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Stefan said: Go to this link: http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=335&start=30 Talk to Doug Schrenk at the North Bend ranger station. They are supposedly going to gate the Middle Fork Snoqualmie road at Dingford creek which a lot of people oppose. But the real truth isn't supposed to come out until the final document is done. I know this has been beat to death, but what about Mountaineer Creek TH being closed so a new bridge can be built for logging trucks. Another example of Forest Circus making the citizen recreator pay more for less, and putting logging interests ahead of everything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 If you want to get people riled, consider the perspective that the Fee Demo Program has effectively foisted govermental public lands management decision makeing from Congress to Goverment agencies --especially onto the area managers. The public has little recourse for exhibiting displeasure; Ya can't vote to fire the park manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtwigle Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 How about a look into Rescue Cost Recovery and exactly how much of that cost actually exists. Examples might include, volunteer efforts (free to the public), National Guard training (already budgeted), etc. With an focus on the current climber registration fee hikes in MRNP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_w Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Attitude said: In Washington: SnoPark Permit: $20 Groomed Trails Permit: $20 NW Forest Pass: $30 Washington Fish and Wildlife Parking Permit: $12 Mt. Rainier Annual Pass: $30 Mt. Rainier Annual Climbers Permit: $ 25 Mt. St. Helens & Mt. Adams Annual Climbing Permit: $30 Olympic National Park Annual Pass: $ 30 Olympic National Park Wilderness Use Fee: $ $5 Mount Rainier Annual Pass ($30) + Olympic National Park Annual Pass ($30) = National Park Pass ($50) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alasdair Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 How about a comparison between rescue costs of Boaters and that of climbers, and be sure to note that there is never any talk of getting boaters to pay for their coast guard rescues. As far as fees go: I pay the climbing fee for Mount Rainier The enchantments fees from the Fuckhead forrest service rangers at Levenworth. (very grudgingly) I have never bought any other permit for climbing. I think a great story would be why is the Levenworth Ranger station so full of fuckwads while many of the other ranger stations in this state have great freindly staff who acutally seem to care. Hidden cammera on Mr. Snow creek Nazi ranger so others can see what a asshole he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klenke Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 Yeah, we haven't heard about Larry the Tool in a while. Newstips: Mr. Snow Creek Nazi Ranger = Larry the Tool. He gives tickets and harasses climber folk just cuz he can. A real prick or so I've heard. I can't wait to meet him myself so he can get me riled up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted March 7, 2003 Share Posted March 7, 2003 One thing to be aware of, though, is that I think a common feeling in the Wenatchee area is that the Post Intelligencer (wasn't it them?) completely misconstred the story about the botched investigation into that sex scandal a couple years ago, and that there was in fact serious sexual abuse going on and the expose was in part fabricated so that some Seattle reporters could promote their own careers. A story that was critical of law enforcement in the area may in fact only embolden them as their neighbors perceive them as victims of the Seattle media and talk about how they hate those god damned 206'ers anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialed Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 klenke said: Yeah, we haven't heard about Larry the Tool in a while. Newstips: Mr. Snow Creek Nazi Ranger = Larry the Tool. He gives tickets and harasses climber folk just cuz he can. A real prick or so I've heard. I can't wait to meet him myself so he can get me riled up. Trust me bro, you don't ever, ever want to meet Larry the Tool. Sad thing is all the stories about him are true. Not even embelished a little bit. Last time I had a run in with him, he was so bummed I actually had my permit he told me I was violating federal law by drinking beer at the trailhead and he held me there for 20 minutes while he ran my drivers license through his computer and threatened to take me to jail. Turns out its not even illegal to drink at a trailhead! and he knew it. What a fuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 While "user fees" as such are interesting I would suggest a slightly different yet complimentary story. Learn about the Park Renewal and Stewardship Accounts for the Washington State Parks. The legislation establishing the PRSA states: "The legislature clearly intends that such revenues shall complement, not supplant, future general fund support." The most cursory of reviews will make evident how this intent has been ignored. Next read about the creation of the Enterprise Services Program. Now I would ask the question: If the parks Department is essentially moving towards a becoming a self funding entity why is the State in the Parks Business at all? Related questions: How does self-funding change the decisions that the Parks Dept makes? Isn't self funding merely a tax by another means? PP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Newtips I applaud you for hearing us out and possibly making a story of our issues with fees, but I'm skeptical about what a local news program could do for an issue that has been covered by any number of local newspapers with no results. Many of us here have written to legislators protesting the fee, and Some of have protested in court to no avail. I'm thinking the best thing for us is if you were to take all the arguments against fee demo and somehow get promoted to 60 Minutes or some such to reach a national audience. You could always do another story on Erden... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 We can influence local/statewide decisions much more than federal policies. By the way shouldnt the news not have an agenda? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 (edited) Nevermind. Edited March 8, 2003 by vegetablebelay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squid Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 vegetablebelay was all: Newtips I applaud you for hearing us out and possibly making a story of our issues with fees, ... and so I was like: Yeah- me too. Good job on the outreach, Newstips. I appreciate it, and I'm sure many others do, too. However, there is a real gem of a news story lurking on CC that really deserves highlighting- me. Not only am I really, really, really good looking, but I'm stupendously photogenic. On the downside, I'm not 'technically' a climber, but I do lurk on CC, which is more or less the same thing, right? Besides, all those other stories would require some phone calls, some interviews, some fact checking and probably some cold and rainy photo ops. With me, you get great photo ops for the small price of a few brewskis in a cozy environment (I'm thinking Toi, downtown) with an attractive, wealthy and single tv anchor. Hell, it needn't be an anchor, I'm not proud, a simple reporter would do. PM me when you're interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shuksan Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 One thing you could check out is the sweet deal the snowmobilers get; they aren't actually paying to park at the sno-parks as someone mentioned earlier --- they get the $21 annual sno-park pass for their truck free with their $23 snowmobile registration. Tracking down how that deal took place should be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 You could do a story on one of our climbing prodigies, such as colin. He's quite a rising star in the Northwest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEWSTIPS Posted March 8, 2003 Author Share Posted March 8, 2003 Squid said: and so I was like: However, there is a real gem of a news story lurking on CC that really deserves highlighting- me. Not only am I really, really, really good looking, but I'm stupendously photogenic...With me, you get great photo ops for the small price of a few brewskis in a cozy environment (I'm thinking Toi, downtown) with an attractive, wealthy and single tv anchor. Hell, it needn't be an anchor, I'm not proud, a simple reporter would do. PM me when you're interested. Well, I've never had such a great offer. It is clear to me from your posting that you are buying, so I'll meet you there in 20 minutes....It'll probably be a hidden camera crew, though, so as to capture you as you really are rather than how you wish for the camera to portray you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 You could do a story on two old friends, Tom Hornbein and Pete Schoening. These guys are famous for, respectively, being the first to climb the West Ridge of Everest, and singlehandedly saving the lives of an entire climbing team on the first American attempt of K2. They are old guys now, but they still get out and do some great scrambles and bushwacks in the local mountains. Pete has cancer but still gets out. These guys have many first ascents of many popular peaks and crags in this area, for example Yellowjacket Tower, a veritable right of passage for novice climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Do a story on what mountaineering means to the Seattle area/northwest, the biggest mountaineering center in North America (climbing population, # of visiting climbers, glaciated range, etc ...). Discuss how it affect (or should) the image of the city. What it means to the economy. Should it be promoted and facilitated by the state (as well as 'adventure tourism' as a whole). Constrast its future to the logging industry for example. Ponder whether preserving our forest is the smartest economic plan, etc ... big story, I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obsydian Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 The reality is that the public could care less that you have to spend $150 on fees to climb in a year. Face it, that is chump change, even though it burns your hide. You're going to burn more in gas getting there. On the logging issue, politicians like logging because it keeps taxpaying jobs (or so they say). How about a story on the climbing economy? There's got to be jobs in all those climbing shops, restaurants in the North Cascades, equipment makers, etc., that are supported by climbers, hikers and outdoor enthusiasts. I'll bet there is more money changing hands around our beautiful outdoors then folks realize. I know I've dropped a few thousand $ over the last few years getting geared up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomcat Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 I wouldn't be so sure the public couldn't care less ... what if they do an investigation and happen to uncover corrupt finance issues within the forest service? What if they're buying gumball machines for their offices with the proceeds? I think there's more to fees than meet the eye and it appears from this thread that a lot of people agree. I think it's an important issue that people will care about if it's investigated properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icegirl Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 Hornbein rocks! he may have two total hips, but it does not stop him from climbing better than me at the gym... Do a story on total joints and active lifestyle, and feature hornbein.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted March 8, 2003 Share Posted March 8, 2003 I didn't know about his hip replacements, and I didn't know it was possible to climb with artificial joints. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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