carolyn Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Okay, so I am going to be investing in a pair of my first "real" boots this winter. I had just rented from REI last winter, but they are cutting out their rental dept from what I hear, so I am S.O.L. I need my own pair anyway, since one of my climbing goals is to be more independant and not have to keep borrowing (or renting) from others. Im ready to make the commitment! I had been renting Koflachs all last winter which I really liked. My feet tend to get cold easily - Koflach's kept them pretty toasty (better than my mukluks I must say!) A good friend of mine swears by leather. It seems like plastic is better on vertical ice (which is what we have here in MN and Ontario) because it is more stiff. Its also warmer (on my feet). On the other hand, plastic is pretty darn bulky. Leather might be more practical - I can use them for hiking, backpacking, etc here in mn, ice climbing, and for my trips out west in the mountains. Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks! carolyn ps...warm feet are VERY important to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Leather is better for vertical ice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizard_brain Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 I used to always use leather until I decided to rent a pair of Koflach Degres at REI, like you did. I liked them so much that I bought a pair before my next trip. They are relatively light, they fit my feet well, they have a lot of flex in the ankles (so they are pretty tolerable on trails). I use 'em for snowshoeing and glacier climbing, and have tried ice climbing in them a couple of times (but the ice climbs were nothing dramatic). In short, I really like 'em - they stay fairly warm and dry. I've never stayed dry in leather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted October 19, 2001 Author Share Posted October 19, 2001 lambone, okay , let the newbie in me shine Lambone, how do you think? I guess my understanding is because plastic is stiffer it is easier on vertical ice. Although, I havent used leather while climbing vertical ice, so I dont know. Shit, I had another thought/question and Ive totally spaced it... Oh well. I think I need to go to sleep. Its much later here! Night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To_The_Top Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Carolyn, For me if you are doing long snow slogs, volcanoes mostly snow, or really cold conditions, go plastic. For long approaches on trail or whatever, then some travel on snow or glacier, go leather. I can never seem to really keep them dry for long in all snow, and get a little heavy. I don't do much ice, but some, and think plastics were better (no pro at ice). My best leathers were bought here at Second bounce aka second ascent. Don't get railed into buying new, I never have and have been very happy with the purchases. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieE Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 The trend within the last five years has been leather over plastic for a few different reasons: - Leather provides more sensitivity and a much better fit. As the progress of ice climbing has given rise to more athletic and gymnastic routes, the need for more precise foot placements has gotten to be the rule rather than the exception. - Approaches are a heck of a lot more comfortable in leather boots. - When you're comparing the stiffness of a mountaineering leather and a plastic boot, think about the stiffness of around the ankle, not the stiffness of the shank. Plastics only have a slight edge at the shank compared to leathers, but this is more than compensated for by rigid crampons. However, especially with Koflach's softer plastic, you might find leathers to be stiffer at the ankle (it's harder to drop your heel when frontpointing) than SOME plastics. I feel that's the case with my Arctis Expeditions vs. my Super Mountain 9's. But neither of those are as stiff as my Scarpa Invernos. I might as well have casts on my feet, but they're frontpointing machines. that's my worthless two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 quote: Originally posted by carolyn: lambone, okay , let the newbie in me shine Lambone, how do you think? I guess my understanding is because plastic is stiffer it is easier on vertical ice. Although, I havent used leather while climbing vertical ice, so I dont know. Shit, I had another thought/question and Ive totally spaced it... Oh well. I think I need to go to sleep. Its much later here! Night! Eddie, pretty much said it... I like the sensitivity you get with leathers. They are lighter, and I think they are more comfortable in general. But they get wet... The cuffs of most plastic boots are not much stiffer than leathers. They may be nice at first, but you'll gain calf muscle pretty quick. Then you will find stiff boots limiting. I think that straight on frontpointing is the slowest, and most strenous way to climb ice. I'm not sure why people think its the only way to do it. Avoid it at all costs! Get crazy, throw a stem in, heel hook a cicle, drop knee that buldge! It's all alot easier with leathers. Personally my calves are not very strong, so I have trouble frontpointing for a full pitch. Instead I try to use my edges and heels, yeah...just like on rock(or plastic). Plastics have their advantages of course, I like them for long trips because you can (attempt) to dry out the liners. [This message has been edited by lambone (edited 10-18-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Parker Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 I have both. Eddie is right. I prefer leathers for ice climbing because they fit tighter. Like driving a sports car vs. an SUV. But keep in mind the leather boots you will buy for front pointing will be stiff, so not much better for hiking than plastics. If cold feet is an issue, go with plastics. Hike in other shoes. For climbs like Rainier, both work perfectly well so it doesn't matter that much. Plastics also let you dry out your liners easier which can be warmer if you climb multi day trips. My $.03! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texplorer Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Listen to the Eddie!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willstrickland Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Carolyn, two things to add: MN is insanely cold, and plastics are, on average, much warmer than leathers. My feet have never been cold in my Invernos, even spending weeks in the rockies in January. No boot I've ever seen that would stand up to cold weather, leather or plastic, would be "comfortable" on an approach. Rocker type soles on plastics help alot, and if you're climbing close to the road the super-light leathers like the trango extreme are the ticket. For Ouray, those would be awesome, for Hyalite, they'd suck. FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 I dont think it is a matter of plastic versus leather. Some leather boots kick ass on vertical ice and are very warm. Some suck for that but are good for summer climbing and hiking (like the Makalu that I use). I use Koflach Plastics on ice but I don't say they are the best for sure. If I go on say Mt Baker in summer then I would most likely use my Makalus. If I could afford the Nepal Top Extreme mumbo jumbos I might own them for waterfall ice........ over my plastics but who knows. That said I guess it all depends on what you want. There are plenty of brands that I saw were good. Scarpa, Koflach, Lowa all make good boots. The plastics have their high end and low end versions as well as the leathers. Leathers can range from Makalu, Supermountain 9, Nepal Top, Tecnica or a variety of others. You need to determine what is most important for yourself. Do you climb waterfalls in the winter? Do you climb seracs in the summer? How quick do your feet get cold? Do you require a boot with more ankle support and that frontpoints better? How much money are you willing to spend? Do you just slog up volcanoes (non technical routes)? [This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 10-19-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Carolyn- I would vote for Koflach plastics. MN can get way cold, and there isn't anything to climb there except steep ice (when it's cold at least). Though you shouldn't kid your self into believing that a good steep ice boot will make for a good trail walking boot. The Koflachs come close though, with the afore-mentioned soft plastic (actually 3 different plastics) The best deal with koflachs are that you can buy them on Barrabes.com for waaaaaay cheaper than anywhere around here. Last time I looked: Degres - $99 Vertical - $160 (This is what I use for ice, and they're excellent) Acrtis Exp - $190 just go into your local REI, fit your foot out to any Koflach boot, and then order away! (note that the artic expd's have a larger outter boot relative to the other boots by about 1 or 1/2 a size) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 The classic boot debate. I have been using la sportiva nepal tops for the last 6 years and that is all that I like for winter ice climbing. That is the only boot that I felt could keep the heels locked down while front pointing. I've tried the koflach arctis and no matter how tight I crank the laces, my feet won't stay down. Scary feelling actually. The boot is sized for expeditions so there lies the problem. If cash is not a problem then a pair of plastics for summer slogs and a extreme nepal top (insulated) for winter would be a good bet. Feet don't get wet in the winter from any running water just sweat which shouldn't be bad either. If cash is a problem, try the new scarpa boot alpha. Looks like a great ice boot and summer walker boot. I got one this fall and only had a chance to wear it on the inside walls but the heals stayed own very nice. Go try some at feathered friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Carolyn, if REI is cutting out their rental program they'll dump the rental boots. Buy the style you rented (and liked) for less $$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Carolyn: I get the impression you are shoping for a primary pair of boots that will serve as an all around climbing boot for you. If that is the case I would recomend taking a closer look at the leathers as they are better all purpose than plastics IMO. If cold is what concerns you plasics are warmer, but, take a look at some Scarpa Matterhorns at: www.sierratradingpost.com You probably wont find a better boot for the $ and if they don't fit, Sierra Trading won't fuss about the return. (I've returned a few things without any trouble) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted October 19, 2001 Author Share Posted October 19, 2001 Hey thanks for all the great thoughts everyone! Yes, bronco an all around climbing boot is ideal. Im gonna be scraping just to get one pair. I cant afford two different tpes to fit my mood of the day unfortunately at this point in my life. If I was planning on staying in MN and only using them to climb vertical ice, the decision would be easy....plastic. But my plans have me venturing off to visit other places with the possibility of moving in the next couple years. I hope that whatever I decide will be practical for where ever I might end up (ya, I may be asking the PNW to adopt me in the near future ) Again, thanks for the thoughts. Im learning when I want to make an important purchase like this I need to gather as much info as possible and KNOW exactly what I want when I walk into REI (which happens to be the most reasonably priced store in the area). Otherwise they tend to try and sell what "they" think is best for you instead of giving you the information you need and HELPING you make a decision that is really best for YOU. I dont get it? They individually dont make anything off what they sell do they? Okay, sorry...I just had yet another bad experience at REI last night. I will get off the tangent. Maybe I should just send them a letter expressing my concerns instead. *hmmmpppffff* I cant believe it, but Im leaning toward leather...I will check out the sites a few of you left for me. And maybe with rei canning their rentals they will be selling boots cheap and I COULD potentially afford two different kinds! carolyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wopper Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 I own both leathers(Montrails) and plastics(Koflachs). I would not wear my leathers ice climbing, likewise I would not wear my plastics on an approach trail. I believe they both have their distinct areas where they perform well. I am sure there are others that would disagree with me. Regardless on what you decide is right for you, go to REI, find the type and size of boot you want to buy and then visit sierratradingpost.com (as commented above) or REI.Outlet.com There is a good possibility you will find the same boot for a lot less $$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haireball Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Originally posted by carolyn: [they tend to try and sell what "they" think is best for you instead of giving you the information you need and HELPING you make a decision that is really best for YOU. I dont get it? They individually dont make anything off what they sell do they? check the shop's policy - I once worked in a shop (back in the early 70s) where boots were a commission sale. that could explain a lot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpine_Tom Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 quote: Originally posted by mikeadam: You can use Dan Aylward's method and attach some track spikes to the bottom of your tennis shoes and then climb TNF of Mt Buckner. Worked for him --should work for you. I have the engineering specs he sent me if you want them. Anatoli Boukreev wore track shoes with spikes on the lower slopes of Everest. If it's good enough for him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolyn Posted October 19, 2001 Author Share Posted October 19, 2001 haireball, The most recent experiences I have had there wasnt even in the footwear dept. Camping..and then last night in climbing. On the other side of the coin I HAVE had some decent help there as well. Mike...spikes on my shoes, huh? Very creative. Thanks for the idea... I think by the time I figure out how to make them I might as well spend my time chopping steps on vertical routes and climb in my mukluks. Hmmmmmmmm? Maybe that is the solution, huh?!?!?!?! Could be some good learning there..and definately some weary arms! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Some leathers are great for vertical water ice, but most are not. If you are going with leather and want to use it on water ice make sure it a a fully rigid sole designed to take a water ice crampon. Most leather mountianeering boots will not make a good water ice boot. Some will most won't. One thing to REALLY keep in mind, I understand that you are in MN and Ontario area? If that is true you know what cold is...much colder there than here and even much of coastal Alaska. Plastics will keep the feet warmer...no doubt. The PNW is actually a very warm range and many of the people out here have no idea what real cold is. (But a lot of the climbers do). But there are some leathers that have some insulation and are good for ice (Tecnica Altitude plus - actually a combo of some leather and synthetic that is popular among many water ice climbers)....but are no where near as warm as a good pair of plastics. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Carolyn, I'd definitely consider some of the new burly leather insulated boots, if too cold (still) go with supergaiters to compensate, I know you'll make a sound decision. In his book "The Climb" didn't Boukereev mention wearing his track shoes way up high on Everest like to 22000 feet? Felt they were the best footwear for travelling "fast and light." [This message has been edited by Beck (edited 10-19-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminal_Gravity Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 Becks right Carolyn; if you want versatility in a boot. Get Leather. I love my Scarpa Invernos, Ridgid, great traction and sensitive. I have climbed vertical ice, alpine rock and done approaches. They are as warm as my old Koflaches and stay dry if you are careful about nik waxing them. They only get wet if you sweat to much or let snow get down inside. I've never had too, but if it gets cold enough wear over gaiters and save $$ because you only need one pair of boots. The downside is that if they do get wet they are hard to dry in a tent. OH Yeah, If you are starving to death you can't eat plactic boots [This message has been edited by Terminal Gravity (edited 10-19-2001).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted October 19, 2001 Share Posted October 19, 2001 And so most agree with what I think.... You find a comfortable boot then===>You spend the money then you get the boot. Top end or low end. Proving you can use leathers for vertical ice or glacier slogging. You can use plastics too for the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeadam Posted October 20, 2001 Share Posted October 20, 2001 You can use Dan Aylward's method and attach some track spikes to the bottom of your tennis shoes and then climb TNF of Mt Buckner. Worked for him --should work for you. I have the engineering specs he sent me if you want them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.