jja Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 The "new" europe gets it, do you? January 30, 2003 Europe and America must stand united THE real bond between the United States and Europe is the values we share: democracy, individual freedom, human rights and the Rule of Law. These values crossed the Atlantic with those who sailed from Europe to help create the USA. Today they are under greater threat than ever. The attacks of 11 September showed just how far terrorists — the enemies of our common values — are prepared to go to destroy them. Those outrages were an attack on all of us. In standing firm in defence of these principles, the governments and people of the United States and Europe have amply demonstrated the strength of their convictions. Today more than ever, the transatlantic bond is a guarantee of our freedom. We in Europe have a relationship with the United States which has stood the test of time. Thanks in large part to American bravery, generosity and far-sightedness, Europe was set free from the two forms of tyranny that devastated our continent in the 20th century: Nazism and Communism. Thanks, too, to the continued cooperation between Europe and the United States we have managed to guarantee peace and freedom on our continent. The transatlantic relationship must not become a casualty of the current Iraqi regime’s persistent attempts to threaten world security. In today’s world, more than ever before, it is vital that we preserve that unity and cohesion. We know that success in the day-to-day battle against terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction demands unwavering determination and firm international cohesion on the part of all countries for whom freedom is precious. The Iraqi regime and its weapons of mass destruction represent a clear threat to world security. This danger has been explicitly recognised by the United Nations. All of us are bound by Security Council Resolution 1441, which was adopted unanimously. We Europeans have since reiterated our backing for Resolution 1441, our wish to pursue the UN route and our support for the Security Council, at the Prague Nato Summit and the Copenhagen European Council. In doing so, we sent a clear, firm and unequivocal message that we would rid the world of the danger posed by Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction. We must remain united in insisting that his regime is disarmed. The solidarity, cohesion and determination of the international community are our best hope of achieving this peacefully. Our strength lies in unity. The combination of weapons of mass destruction and terrorism is a threat of incalculable consequences. It is one at which all of us should feel concerned. Resolution 1441 is Saddam Hussein’s last chance to disarm using peaceful means. The opportunity to avoid greater confrontation rests with him. Sadly this week the UN weapons inspectors have confirmed that his long-established pattern of deception, denial and non-compliance with UN Security Council resolutions is continuing. Europe has no quarrel with the Iraqi people. Indeed, they are the first victims of Iraq’s current brutal regime. Our goal is to safeguard world peace and security by ensuring that this regime gives up its weapons of mass destruction. Our governments have a common responsibility to face this threat. Failure to do so would be nothing less than negligent to our own citizens and to the wider world. The United Nations Charter charges the Security Council with the task of preserving international peace and security. To do so, the Security Council must maintain its credibility by ensuring full compliance with its resolutions. We cannot allow a dictator to systematically violate those Resolutions. If they are not complied with, the Security Council will lose its credibility and world peace will suffer as a result. We are confident that the Security Council will face up to its responsibilities. José María Aznar, Spain José Manuel Durão Barroso, Portugal Silvio Berlusconi, Italy Tony Blair, United Kingdom Václav Havel, Czech Republic Peter Medgyessy, Hungary Leszek Miller, Poland Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Denmark http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-559907,00.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 "THE real bond between the United States and Europe is the values we share: democracy, INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, HUMAN RIGHTS and the Rule of Law." Oh, is that because we put thousands of innocent people in jail each year based off what they choose to do with their own bodies and minds? Or perhaps the human rights bond is in the fact that our government still uses capital punishment? Yeah, you're right, we really value individual freedom and human rights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 lighten up on the patchouli oil, Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 "THE real bond between the United States and Europe is the values we share: democracy, INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, HUMAN RIGHTS and the Rule of Law." Oh, is that because we put thousands of innocent people in jail each year based off what they choose to do with their own bodies and minds? Or perhaps the human rights bond is in the fact that our government still uses capital punishment? Yeah, you're right, we really value individual freedom and human rights! Colin....you spoiled little American. You need to do some traveling and see how most of the rest of the world lives. America is a work in progress. It is not perfect now, nor will it ever be. Maybe the drug and prostitution laws here can be reformed or capital punishment abolished...but not everyone agrees that they should, and ultimately in a democracy it tends to get sorted out. If this were a dictatorship, and you were in charge, we could it have everything JUST YOUR WAY. Right now, you're just 1 in 280 million, afloat in a sea of many visions of how things should be, and if you care enough, and convince enough people that you're right, there is a possibility things might change. So go ahead and post your little laughing gremlins, talk about how lame this country is (which is your right), but keep in mind how lucky you are to be able to bitch and initiate change. - Dwayner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Dwayner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Vaclav Havel's signature on that passage has done more to convince me of war than any war mongering president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Colin is sort of right. You have a greater chance of being incarcerated in the US that any other country in the world. Longer prison sentences and more criminal statutes. Good. I'll have a job busting dirtbags heads for years to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Z, I'd rather be imprisoned than have body parts amputated, have cigarettes put out in my eyes, have electro-shock treatment, be raped by whoever, and other atrocities some third world countries are famous for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayner Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Colin is sort of right. You have a greater chance of being incarcerated in the US that any other country in the world. Longer prison sentences and more criminal statutes. you know why? Ironically, you have great freedom to choose to be a real jackass in this country and a lot of immature folks exploit that fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 For once, I have to agree w/ Dwayner in regards to his comments to Colin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobBob Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 you know why? Ironically, you have great freedom to choose to be a real jackass in this country and a lot of immature folks exploit that fact. Dwayner, for some reason I'm reminded of being near the front row at a Stones concert some 20 years ago. Looking at Keith Richards up close, it dawned on my young brain for the first time that you really do have the freedom to just about do yourself in, and that nobody's gonna stop you but yourself. Keith looked so bad that it was a sobering experience for me. Contrary to the conspiracy-theorists here, there ain't no "Big Brother" in the US. You have the freedom to act like Eminem, etc. if that's what you want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Why is it that we have more people per capita in jail than the rest of the world? Some would have you believe that it is because of discrimination or political repression. Others would have you believe it is because we needlessly incarcerate for "victimless" crimes. But I believe that the reason is freedom. Our people have more choices than anywhere in the world. They can choose where they travel, where they live, with whom they associate, to which school they can go. We also have the most diverse nation on earth. Finally, we are a very moral people. We believe in justice and we believe in a better world. Victimless crimes are not really victimless. Look in the right places and you will find the victims. Drugs: the baby left to starve while its mother goes in search of crack, the house that catches fire when the junkie passes out with food on the stove. Prostitution: venereal disease, HIV, broken homes, marital strife, abuse. Pornography: fosters disrespect for other people and encourages other illegal behavior. When people have more choices, more people choose wrongly. Yes, if we rolled back civil rights and right to due process, I am sure we could reduce crime and incarceration. John Ashcroft is doing is best as we speak. But that isn't the America I want to live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 The "new" europe gets it, do you? do you know how many citizens of these nations agree with attacking Iraq? a small minority (~20%) in the countries that have published polls. So, is the 'new' Europe the politicians who signed this letter or the immense majority of hte people they are supposed to represent? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 at this point does it matter what these other countries think? Shrub is going to attack with or with out allies if he feels like it. My opinion is not based on the polls from other nations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jja Posted January 30, 2003 Author Share Posted January 30, 2003 Vaclav Havel's signature on that passage has done more to convince me of war than any war mongering president. While I wouldn't call gw a war mongerer, I think it's telling that our strongest european support is coming from countries that have a real, vivid, and recent experience with tyranny. The east european countries are becoming the real europe, outgrowing the tired, old, staid, and smug french and germans almost 2 to 1. The franco/germans see the inevitability of their decline and are lashing out. The czech republic is the jewel of eastern europe, grand cities, a history of opposing tyranny (remember the prague spring?) and a philosopher/president that will go down in history along with lech walesa, pope john paul II, ronald reagan, and thatcher as the architects of the final defeat of communism. War is a terrible thing, but it's far from the worst thing imaginable. "We must fight, is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God, I know not what course others may take, but for me, Give me Liberty or Give me Death!" - Patrick Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I think it's telling that our strongest european support is coming from countries that have a real, vivid, and recent experience with tyranny. I don't get this . What do you mean by that? Can you elucidate Britain and Portugaul's real, vivid, and recent experience with tyranny? How about Denmark? Are you talking about the German occupation 60 years ago? Then where are Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, France and Austria? How about Spain and Italy? Are you talking about them being run by dictators 60 years ago? Then what about Germany? I guess I will buy that Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia have experienced real, vivid and recent tyranny, but so have Romania, Bulgaria and every former Soviet Republic. I don't see them on this list. So anyway, I don't really think there's anything "telling" about it, other than you don't understand sorting out cause and effect very well. Oooooh look, isn't it telling that our strongest European support is coming from countries that follow the Mediterreanean diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 War is a terrible thing, but it's far from the worst thing imaginable. allright dude, you just lost all credibility (if you had any). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Good job, you beat Fark on this by almost 10 hours! Soon: "It's not news, it's CC.com" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 pope john paul II well, since you mention his moral authority: "The Pope today issued his strongest message yet in opposition to possible war in Iraq, telling Vatican diplomats that military force must be “the very last option.” John Paul said a renewed conflict with Baghdad would only harm ordinary Iraqis, “already sorely tried” by UN sanctions imposed after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990." http://breaking.examiner.ie/2003/01/13/story84104.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 pope john paul II well, since you mention his moral authority: "The Pope today issued his strongest message yet in opposition to possible war in Iraq, telling Vatican diplomats that military force must be “the very last option.” John Paul said a renewed conflict with Baghdad would only harm ordinary Iraqis, “already sorely tried” by UN sanctions imposed after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990." http://breaking.examiner.ie/2003/01/13/story84104.html ooo look the christains are speakin up now..... yawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Colin makes two good points. We DO jail people for victimless crimes, and we ARE in what I believe is the minority of "civilized" nations that still use the death penalty. Further, I believe we have a higher percentage of our citizens in prison than just about any country in the world and that racism is a stronger force in our society than it is in most of our European brethren. For these and other reasons, I share Colin's skepticism about whether the United States stands for civil rights at home, and don't get me started on our record of undermining civil rights abroad. Go ahead and flame me. But I say that to voice criticism of the United States should not be misconstrued as being unappreciateive or undeserving of the freedom that we enjoy in this country. I think America is a great nation, but I think we could and should do a lot better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I think our criminal justice system blows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I think our criminal justice system blows. You make me sick you traitor faggot. Why don't you go move to Iraq. They've got a good criminal justice system for your unthankful ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 hahaha, nice try ChucK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracked Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Could someone explain their anti-capital punishment views to me? Do you not feel that death is an effective treatment for those who have committed heinous crimes? Take the Unabomber, Kip Kinkel, the Columbine guys, if they had lived? How about the assorted hate bombers who murder hundreds of innocents for no reason (Oklahoma City? was that it?)? Should they live? Just curious about what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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