Andy_Bourne

Anybody been up here lately? I'm thinking of attempting it this Sunday when the weather looks to be clearing a bit. I've not been near this area this winter or spring. Does anyone know what it looks like for snow/avi conditions? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by Andy Bourne (edited 05-01-2001).]

If you want to send a personal message my email is andybourne@hotmail.com. Lets keep the thread to what the title is about. I think you may be thinking of another group, I don't remember anyone doing or saying anything rude to either of the girls. But if it was one of them, I'll tell them you said sorry.

yep.

morsno, thanks for the reply. I think hearing what happened could be a good lesson for people, and maybe enough to keep someone else off the ground. like freak said, there is good pro up to the first bolt (not to mention the climing isn't too hard) and after clipping it, seems like it would be hard to ground out. One of the guys walking down the trail after the rescue said it was a ground fall. If you do get permission, let us know. By the way, that looked like a pretty hairy evacuation. Good job.

Yea, we were right there up close as the chopper hauled out the litter. It was actually pretty amazing to watch. They did so many pick ups back and forth, we thought they were practicing too. We were on Ski Tracks Crack when all the rescue guys came down off Sam Hill. We asked what happened and they said a guy took a ground fall and broke his leg on Box Spring Booty 10c/d. The first bolt is like 25 feet off the ground and it is pretty run out after it on slabby super thin edges. I think that if you get to the first bolt it would be hard to ground out, unless you are pulling in slack to clip the second. I guess they used the chopper because it is kind of wet third class terrain to get to the climb. I still don't know why they made so many passes and pick ups.

Wow, thanks alot. That may have saved hours of guessing whether the topo is wrong or I am bumbling off route. On that 10c dihedral. . that is about at the limit of my climbing ability. How possible is it to aid my way through if need be? Is there good pro or is it kind of tricky?

This may not be anything new, but a good friend of mine recently (9 days ago) contracted Lyme Disease from a tick bite in Leavenworth. We had been climbing in the Careno Crag area, and Trundle Dome. Make sure and check yourself really good within the 24 hours after being exposed to any of the Leavenworth areas and check your gear when you get home. He suspects that a tick got a ride on his equipment, then got him the night we returned. Anyway, if you catch the infection early you may be able to thwart it with antibiotics. Go straight to the doctor if you get a tick bite, and especially if it starts to have a circular red patch around the bite area, like a bullseye. Lyme disease is permanent, so be careful.

I went to Static Point early last year like April or June and I definitely saw that tree lying at the bottom, right where the trail breaks out of the woods and meets the rock face. There were a bunch of rap slings on it, and yea, it was kind of freaky.

Sorry this doesn't directly apply to your question, but I didn't want to submit a whole new post for it. There is another missing fixed piton on a route where the topo says there is one. It is on the last pitch of the Regular Route on Careno Crag. It is a 10b that links two dicontinuous crack systems and the crux is in between the crack systems where the piton used to be, apparently. Anyway it is definitely a little more committing now, and I wanted to post it so anyone going to try it would have a heads up. [This message has been edited by Andy Bourne (edited 04-23-2001).]

Has anyone done this route? Particularly, I was looking for beta on the long 10c dihedral and the connecting 10c pitch with one bolt that goes from the top of the dihedral to Library ledge. (I am thinking of finishing on the last pitch of Outer Space instead of continuing up the 10d chimney pitch of Hyperspace). The dihedral description in Washington Rock says "10c or 11a depending on how you do it" and it looks like the connecting pitch is run out with a bolt at the crux. Anyone have any additional info on these pitches? Thanks.

I usually try to stay out of the debates, but maybe it sounds like all voices should be heard on this on. My humble opinion is that sport climbing should be kept to sport climbing crags, not alpine peaks. I don't care if the approach is 45 minutes or 45 days, if it has a 'summit' and is above treeline, that means it is an alpine peak. Closely bolted, safe clip-ups have their place and I enjoy climbing them, but my opinion is that WA pass is NOT one of those places. Please, if you are putting up a route that in any way resembles a sport climb at Washington Pass, don't complete it. This is a travesty to the ethics of the area and it sets a precedent that more routes of a similar caliber will be soon to come. I question whether this is even the first "sport route" put up at WA pass. Maybe I have a cloudy mind, but isn't there a line of bolts just to the right of Liberty Crack? Some have mentioned the route on Condor Buttress as a comparison, for good reason. I climbed this route a couple of weeks ago and it stands out in stark difference to other routes in the area. I won't claim to have climbed all the routes in Leavenworth, but I have yet to see a route of this fashion that skips an obvious 4" crack, has pitches that are 60 feet long, and places a bolt at your feet, waist and head in some places. The cruxes are bolted in a fashion EXACTLY like Vantage and Exit 38, not like most other routes in the Leavenworth area. This shows that the bolter did not consider or did not care what fashion or "ethics" had been used on other climbs of the area. No care seemed to be given to try to 'fit' the area. Again, I have no problem with Vantage or Exit 38, I don't really even have a problem with the route on Condor Buttress, it was a f***ing fun route in a gorgeous setting. I only have a problem with those styles bleeding over into areas that usually offer climbing of a different style. Everybody knows Index has hard, steep cracks and that the ratings are tough. Static Point and 3 O'clock Rock are long, run-out slabby climbs (Bolted, but not "sport climbs"). Vantage has closely bolted sport climbs with the occasional decent crack in between. Do you want to throw all this diversity away? Make them all homogenous? This is all very subjective obviously, and only my own opinion. But leave the sport routes to the sport areas. And to the guy who said that it is inevitable that WA pass will become the "alpine sport climbing mecca" . . . I pity that way of thinking. (I am not bashing the Condorphamine Addiction guy, I am sorry if it comes off that way. I appreciate the work you have probably done in many areas, and the money you have invested in bolts. I only state my opinion for the sake of this forum.) [This message has been edited by Andy Bourne (edited 04-18-2001).]

My first two cams were Trango, and I've had them for 9 years. By far the lightest cam on my rack, but not my absolute favorite either. I think they are good for doubling up on similar sizes. True, also, about them getting stuck fairly easy. One of the only cams I have found on a route was a stuck trango tri-cam, but I did work it loose and still use it today. In general, I think they are good for the money, but not my first choice.

Welcome to the Northwest. There is definitely no ice to be had unless you ran into the occasional patch of it on a snow climb. But there are lots of climbable snow routes and couloirs. I don't know what your comfort level is for soloing, so it is hard to make suggestions for routes. Snoqualmie Pass has several routes within a concentrated area that can certainly be done solo in a day. There are also good possibilities around Colchuck Lake near Leavenworth, but climbing anything there will take more than a day. I have heard of some stuff south of Rainier in Goat Rocks Wilderness, which is situated in the middle of three volcanos, Adams, St. Helens, and Rainier. Check out the Cascade Alpine Guide by Fred Beckey for climbing routes, and look at 100 best hikes in Washington for hiking/walking routes. And, yes, snowshoes will greatly increase options. Good luck.

I'd like to put out a couple questions for people who have been to the Southern Picket range. (I imagine Lowell Skoog would be a good person for this) When is a good time of summer to head in there? What concerns are there as far as early, middle and late season? Bergschrund problems? I am basically trying to find what considerations there might be in going out there, what to plan for. I want to try a route on Inspiration. I'd like to try something else while out there and if anyone has suggestions on a logical choice given an attempt on Inspiration, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Mark, My work email is abourne@aai.cc Send your email address to me and I'll start finding some references for you.

I work for AAI (American Alpine Institute) and our WFR course and instructor are very good. His name is Kelly Turner and he's been in the business for a long time. The feedback I hear about him from our students has all been very good. Our next course is May 11-20. One thing about our course that may differ from other courses is that it isn't a give away. You have to study quite a bit beforehand and it is also longer, in hours, than most other 10 day courses. In printed material we state that it is a 90 hour course, but Kelly says it usually ends up being more like over 100. He also likes to focus on the simulations as much as possible, thats why there is so much studying before, leaving class time for reviewing and practicing rather than learning for the first time. I personally took a course from RSI, Rescue Specialists, Inc., in Leavenworth before working at AAI. I believe they are affiliated with Wilderness Medical Associates. Our instructor was Tom Clausing who did an excellent job and the facility was really cool as well. It way exceeded my expectations in every aspect. A couple of organizations who are trying to become the standard for WFR training are Wilderness Medical Associates, Wilderness Medical Institute, and SOLO. If you are getting a WFR for a job requirement, most if not all businesses recognize these three automatically. Other organizations offering WFR courses might not be recognized automatically, some will have to be checked to see if their curricula is sufficient. As far as I know, all AAI WFR participants have always been accepted as a valid course when applying for a job or becoming recertified after the three year expiration period. There is no standard or certification to be able to teach a WFR course, anyone can put together a course and call it a WFR. Going with a reputable company will better ensure quality instruction. Good luck in your search.

I climbed the SW couloir on S early winter spire on Saturday 3/24. It has rained and snowed since, so everything will be different, I'm sure. The Blue lk parking lot was plowed. I used snowshoes on the way in and Avi danger was seemingly low. The couloir was pretty mellow at no more than about 45 degrees. The first 100 ft or so was nice snow, followed by a short section of thin ice over loose rock. After that the snow turned to unconsolidated hip-deep wading, then back to another very short ice section. The last 60 feet or so was nice snow for kicking steps. One or two 5.0 moves brings you to the summit. Be careful on N and NW sides on and near the summit, it is corniced with quite a drop on the other side. I used the S arete for decent, downclimbing and a couple of rappels. Whole thing took like 5 hours car to car at a mellow pace.

On the topic of climbing and bees, I couldn't resist telling a story of my own. There is a tiny crag outside of the town of Monterry, TN called Bee Rock (no joke) and it is a very fitting name, unbeknownst to me in my fledgling years of climbing. I began my climbing career at this memorable place as it had the best verticle relief within a days drive of where I went to college. After a trip to the Gunks to learn to place pro I came back to my home state with a vigor to climb cracks. The most obvious line on Bee Rock was this 100 ft dihedral that as far as I knew had never been led. I dragged a college buddy up there who had only climbed a couple of times promising a fun day of learning some new climbing techniques. I must add that in the summer months, not only is it extremely hot, sticky and humid, but anywhere you go in the woods and especially around rocks or cliffs, there are lots of spiders and spider webs. These aren't the spiders like here in the NW. Think of the biggest wolf spider you have ever seen and then put it in the center of a three to eight foot web of very thick strands, and you have the standard for this area. I also have a bad fear of these things. As I started up the first pitch, struggling with the weight of the rack, humidity, the fear of first gear leads, and spider webs filling all the cracks I want to place my brand new Hexes. Sometimes I run it out way more than I want to just to find a crack with only small spiders in the way. I establish a belay on a nice ledge and bring up my partner. Both of us are really uncomfortable with all the hanging webs and big meaty spiders all around and just want to get up and off this thing. The start of the second pitch was the crux and the worst area for spiders. A 4 to 5 inch crack left the ledge and went up and left in a dihedral which led to easier climbing and after that, the top. The crack was FULL of spiders. I was struggling with the courage to rake spiders out of the way to jam the crack and place pro, or just to run it out and get quickly to the easy ground above. After 20 feet of climbing with zero pro, save my belay, I decided I better get something in. Arms burning, petrified of monster spiders, and no pro, I reach over to a little hickory bush growing out of the rock, to use as a broom to sweep out an area in the crack. As the branch breaks off a huge swarm of wasps explodes from the branch, which had been harboring a huge nest on the exact brance I broke off. This instant is without a doubt the scariest moment of my life. Miraculously there was no feeling of that familiar pang of the sting, and no sudden jerk of the rope after a long fall. The next thing I remember I was clenching a tree root on the easier ground above, out of breath and desperately trying to find a place for a stopper. A couple more moves and I was standing on top, just ready to get drunk. My only solace was knowing that my parter was going to have to go through exactly what I just did. As I established a belay and yelled, climb on, I was smiling remembering that if there was ever a person on this earth afraid of bees and spiders, it was him.

I climbed the SW couloir of S Early Winter Spire on Saturday the 24th. The parking lot for Blue Lk Trailhead was plowed and several other parties were up there that day. It wasn't too cold, so the snow was sort of slushy on the approach, but not too bad. Conditions in the couloir were variable from good firm snow to hip deep wading to short sections of thin water ice over loose rock. It never got any steeper than about 45 degrees and there was snow and ice all the way to the top of the couloir. Reaching the summit involved one or two 5.0 moves. A very nice outing all in all. Instead of downclimbing the route, I went down the S Arete via downclimbing and a couple of rappels. A friend of mine just now walked in, he also just returned from WA pass, and said that a crust has formed from rain on Sunday, and the skiing wasn't all that great. He was on the hwy side of S early Winter.

Ironic one of your only appropriate posts is about how you will continue to make inappropriate posts. . . I personally am very glad that Jon officially brought up the topic as a thread. My vote goes to having less of the stupid remarks and replies, unless they are VERY funny. And not just funny to a couple of people, really #@%!ing funny. I'd also like to point out particularly to the route info pages like on the N cascades, Alpine Lakes, etc. The stupid remarks have even spilled over to them! I had actually decided to quit coming to this site for this reason, it was so hard to sift through all the crap just to get to a reasonable response. But it was a hard habit to break and there actually is really good beta, if you can find it. That's my take on the whole thing. Good job on those who started the site. I have benefited from it alot. Thanks.

Blight, Good info. Sounds like a cool route. I was just curious how the general conditions are in the Icycle or Tumwater? or the approach? Also, was the route wet in any spots? Thanks.

Has anyone been up to Mt Triumph during the winter or spring? I am looking for beta on early season routes on this peak and/or access considerations and whatever else might be pertinent. Can you even drive that far on hwy 20 in winter?

I have never been up that drainage to Eldorado, how did it look as far as avalanche terrain. In the woods alot? open slopes? Is the parking lot still accessible and do you have any suggestions to someone heading up that way, like guidebook deviations or how much time it took? Thanks.

This is one subject that I feel very strongly about. I would also like to express surprise and pride at the maturity in which people have been responding to this subject. Climbing still IS a noble sport. J Fisher has hit it right on the nose and I don't think I could have put it any better, but I'll try. A climb should only be altered with the first ascent party's permission. New bolts should only be placed where an old one existed before. Follow the ethics of the particular area, if you don't know what they are, take the time to find out. Placing bolts for the reason of "safety" is the decision of the first ascensionist and subject to the ethics of an area. My opinion is that it is a travesty to put a bolt on something that someone has climbed without it. There are millions of climbs out there, go seek those out that fit your climbing style and leave those be that don't. Some climbers seek out those climbs where the objective hazard, ground fall potential, run out factor, etc., is high. There MUST be routes that have these characteristics or we will have a world full of homogenous climbing. Can you imagine if there weren't any climbs out there that when you spoke of them it sent chills down your spine to think that someone had actually lead it? Also, imagine how many more people will start climbing if everything is perfectly safe! These are the routes that we amateurs gawk at and hardmen drool at. This is an absolutely essential part of our sport, period.