d_sowerby

Read my second last post and and try and answer some of the questions raised

Do you realize you have a habit of replying but not answering any of the points raised? Just wondered.

At Madrone? that would be Comfortizer. Glad you liked it, one of my best I think. Did Kevin fall clipping the bolt or from the thin edge? I don't know how you would do another bolt in between 2 and 3. Or how you would clip it. #2 is at you foot as you clip #3 So I would have been the cause of any injury? Not the person climbing at their own risk? Seems odd. I've never heard of anyone who put up a climb being blamed for an injury on the climb. The bolts are a bit sportier than Wild Things for sure but you can see from the ground how far apart they are. You have to take responsibility for your own actions and not look around to see who you can blame. Glad you did lead Comfortizer, you rose to the challenge. Of course you are allowed to dislike a bolting job on a climb, mine or anyones. It seems like times change, what was once ok is now "dangerous". I guess we expected climbers to have some common sense and to at least check a climb from the ground and assess the risks and not assume that "hey, it must be ok"

No you didn't say anything about re-bolting climbs, and I didn't mean to infer you did. What I'm trying to get at is your opinion that climbs you consider "unsafe" are "Bull". Surely climbing is all about rising to the challenge? Of difficulty or danger, whatever. If you don't want to meet that challenge that's fine, walk on by. That's what you haven't replied to.

yes but we're not talking about "the beauty of the web" we're talking about protection on climbs not being up to your standards and how that's "Bull IMO" if they're at all dangerous by you're standards. So instead of rising to the challenge of the climb, they should be rebolted to fit your standard of safety?

I agree Critical Mass is run-out at the top. But you said "Broughton" and then gave one one climb name and still haven't come up with another name :-) So if I think a climb at Ozone is badly bolted the whole crag is? I think you mean "don't climb it" in your last sentence? So every climb must be protected to suit your standards? Rather than you stepping up to the challenge? quote 'what a bunch of bull IMO'

dammit - killed another thread!!

you stated that "Broughton climbs were badly bolted" and gave Critical Mass as the only example. The thread about Opus. Hey did those guys ever work out the beta?? Back to Dracula - it is more sustained but with easier moves, and hey some climbs do/don't suit some people, you're right. But the bolt are further apart than Ozone :-) (I am a meanie). ----------------dave

I'm curious that you find Bloodline easier Kevin. If you can do Bloodline then Dracula should be ok. On BL did you go over the roof at the top or did you keep going left around the corner then up to the ledge? The bolts on BL are better spaced than on Dracula I think - your previous statement about badly bolted climbs at Broughton (other thread), did that just mean that they were too far apart? ----------------------dave

God did not put that rock there! There, fixed that typo for you.

Is anyone saying that I didn't actually RP Opus? :-) One look at the guidebook would show that I'd led harder things around Portland. Yeah Opus is a little bouldery - it's also short - clip the first bolt with a locking 'biner and sack up. Tymun repeated it. If you think Opus is "hard" you should try "Genocide" or "Tarzan" or "Mowgli Direct". When these routes went in I was climbing at Broughton all the time and got pretty good at slippy, smooth basalt :-) I hope you have fun repeating some of my routes, I had fun putting them up. Thanks for the "ego" comment Kevin, made me smile. --------------dave

Tim and Tymun added/replaced a bunch of anchors there this summer. It is windy and does have lots of PO. Clean rock though :-) -----------------dave

it is indeed a ref to "American Pie's" Stifler, if not his mum. I think it was going to be called "Stiflers mum" originally but ended up as just "Stifler" . A better name than my just completed proj -- "shitfire" ------------dave

hmmm..... yeah I remember Bill - "no pics it didn't happen". Luckily I have about 8 witnesses :-). I'll see if Tymun has any pics, I know I took loads of him on Super Burrito, I'm sure he'll post one of them - I made him look good :-) -------------dave

yeah, rainy season in Oregon has arrived with a (wet) bang. Luckily I just finished my last project at the cave before it started seeping and my new one "stifler" doesn't seep :-). Though if the temps go much lower my fingers will be numb before I get through the crux. ho hum............gotta love it ------------dave

What a fun weekend that was! As the rain poured from the heavens we cranked away- warm and dry. No not in the gym, this was outdoors and in the gorge. Where were you guys? No crowds, no lining up for climbs, you missed out. Saturday the warmup was dry but your head got a little wet as you clipped the anchor, everything else we got on was dry. A couple of runs up the warmup climbs then onto the projects. Cathy worked out the moves on Enchilada 12a and looked good for a send next day. Tymun is getting so close to finally sending Super Burrito 12d, that he must be able to taste it! I did one run up my proj and came off at the same place as before - getting close. Sunday and the rain is coming down even harder, last couple of holds on the warmup are wet though not to much of a problem. Cathy sends on her first go, a fight but pulls throught to the anchor. Tymun gives SB a couple of good goes and comes of high. I give mine 2 tries and come off at the usual place, but feel good with that. Soon. If not then hey it's only climbing isn't it? Fun with friends and trying hard - doesn't get better than that. Oh yeah - where? Rat Cave :-) Choss-pile to some - playground to others.

gitmo love machine -- 12a fa shane

I agree with you about my point, it was good :-). Going back to a route a year later (?) sounds like a good idea, but : You could have another good/bad day, throwing off your original grade You know the moves - I used to do Angular Motion as a warm-up, was it still 12a? it seemed a lot easier :-) I don't think the grading of climbs is going to get better/worse anytime soon - this is a good thing after all, look at how much fun we have discussing/spraying about them? -----------david

this is kind of funny in a thread on how soft the routes are at Ozone - "Dark Lord" is only rated 12c, not 12d :-). Glad you enjoyed the routes --------david

The problem with grading of course is that it's subjective - it's how hard it feels to you. Having a good /bad day? Is the route just your style, or not? Easier if you're tall? So many factors. All these lead to 'soft' and 'hard' routes at the same grade. Routes should (and occasionly do) get regraded if they're way out of line, but if they're close (half a letter grade?) we don't usually bother and gladly accept the higher grade :-) After all we all know that the harder you climb the better person you are - right? It would be informative if your friend had said 'which' routes he was referring to and which 'routes' he was comparing them to. Then I could either agree or disagree. Of course at stated before it is after all pretty pointless - but who can resist the fun? :-) --------------david

so your friend has climbed "all" the .12's at Ozone? or all the .12a's ?? Is 'Angle' soft? or 'Grace' or 'Dark Lord'? I agree 'Humbling/Crumbling' are a little soft, but no softer than 'Kashmir'. There are 'easy' 12a's and 'hard' ones, that's what makes grading arguments/discussions so entertaining - and mostly a waste of time :-) ----------------david

ok, this thread shows how misinformation gets spread: the gear on Angle was a slider or ball-nut not an alien. It's easy to place a cam next to that placement, a few inches in from it. I placed a bomber 11/2 flexible friend there on the third ascent as did Shane on the second. It doesn't need a bolt. Anybody who trusted that POS is stupid - one look would have told you to back it up. ------------david