grtmtnchic

True dat! It's over here!

Going to the very root of it - yes, I would agree with you. But we still have to have SOME source of fuel...yeah?

Well you still get better gas mileage with most diesels. And although this isn't a practical solution for the average person, you can convert a diesel to take waste oil (think McDonald's grease) that you can get for free. Costs around $1000 to convert, then you just have to go get yer grease... Or you can buy fresh veggie oil for $2/gallon at Costco. Ever hear of the "Veggie Van" guy...he drove around the country in his vehicle fueled solely on post-consumer oil (used fast-food grease). Yes, another mention...he's the guy who made the documentary Fields of Fuel that's coming out soon.

This is such a peeve of mine. Most of the people who buy organics don't have a clue that there are toxic chemicals that can legally be used on their food and still have it labeled organic. Until they go and look at the practices of organic vs. non-organic firsthand, most people will have no idea what they are talking about...and it cracks me up to watch them pay the high prices for anything with a smidgen of something organic in the ingredient list...dang city people! But this is a topic for another thread...

But biodiesel is only partially diesel - the rest is veggie oil (or micro-algae, or what have you)...so factor that back in!

He musta been smokin' it then...

I hadn't heard that...but I'll look into it, as that would be an important factor. I was aware that Europe has really given biodiesel the push, far more so than the US.

One more thing about this, just to clarify: wheat and corn are what is grown/used to make Ethanol, which is an energy NEGATIVE fuel - not efficient, and I'm not supporting it - those crops grown to make ethanol are in fact causing food shortages (corn in Latin America for example) and causing destruction of rainforests that are cleared to grow corn. It is possible in the future that Ethanol can be made from switchgrass, which can be grown on land unsuitable for any food crops, which would be great, but the technology isn't there yet. The benefit of biodiesel is that it uses BY-PRODUCTS of food production or WASTE, like post-consumer oil. When soybeans are used to make biodiesel, only the oil is used, and the food part of the soybean is still used. As pointed out by someone else, the most efficient source of biodiesel by far is Algae. Big difference between ethanol and biodiesel. OK, I'll get off my soapbox now

Sounds great....what does it cost to buy? His is a 2003 and I think he bought it for around $18K in 2004, but that was before the demand for TDI's went up - now all the diesel VW's are sold at a premium.

Yeah....after I posted that, I checked some of my other Patagonia stuff....most made in USA, but not everything - I applaud their effort. North Face, REI, Columbia - all made in China, at least what I've got. It's hard to find what you need while purchasing in line with one's beliefs. The power of the consumer to change things is strong, but not when there aren't other options available.

Being aware of where/how and by whom things are made is important. I try to be an educated consumer. Patagonia stuff is made in USA by workers paid at least minimum wage, and it's good stuff and is priced about the same as other brands made in China. You know that means Patagonia's profits are less than those other brands, but Patagonia isn't passing that higher cost of production on to consumers like these other bastard companies. In fact Patagonia also donates 1% of their profits for environmental preservation. I'm a capitalist...to a point. When it comes to companies who market themselves in the outdoor recreation industry as "green", they should walk the talk. Or maybe I'm being naive? I think the purpose of participating in outdoor pursuits is to help bring one to a higher level of consciousness (my own personal view and others may not see it that way). I guess I like knowing that the gear/clothing I buy for outdoor pursuits is in alignment with that...and knowing that my backpack was made by some exploited chinese or vietnamese laborer would really fuck with that. My good time at their expense? No thanks.

My bro's VW Jetta wagon (w/2 adults n 2 kids and lots of stuff in it) gets 45 mpg running on biodiesel. And it smells good!

Nice job! Makes a startling point about efficiency, doesn't it?!

Beef, chicken, pork, lamb - they are all yummy. All you vegans can starve yourselves and look all week and sickly, and I'll have a steak on your behalf. I'm leaving this thread now so you can sink yourself.

Have you noticed that a lot of cool companies are now having all or most of their stuff made in China? And the prices to the consumer haven't changed...so those bastard companies are charging us the same thing for a product they are now making a far bigger profit on due to decreased production costs. OR, Kavu, Prana, etc... I know they are in business to make a profit, but I think there has to be some integrity there...especially for the brands that are marketed as "green"...outsourcing labor and shipping products halfway across the world (using fuel to do so) doesn't seem very "green" to me. Rant, rant...

and getting the government to release there grip on fuel profits..... Yes, absolutely...mebbe w/o a BUSH in office that can actually happen!

WRONG. Europe relies on mideast fuel, NOT the US. I thought you were some kind of (self-professed) expert on these matters who "knows what you are talking about". You took my quote out of context...that was about "agriculture in America".

Yup, I totally agree! Have you read Diet for a New America by Robbins?

Umm, actually what we're NOT doing is what isn't working. More efficient cars, people being less wasteful, better city planning/development, better mass transit options, etc. That's all well and good, but our fuel still has to come FROM someplace...primarily middle eastern countries as things are right now. Reducing is a great idea. Better city planning is a great idea. But a more sustainable idea would be to change the type of fuel we use. We still need fuel.

seems to me YOU are just looking at the articles you want. food prices are already rising because of biofuels. The US gov't and businesses are "encouraging" 3rd world countries to provide biofuels at the expense of the environment, and their own people (e.g. Brazil). It's all over the place. But I guess it's easier to hum a simplistic mantra "biofuels are the answer". there is no silver bullet There is nothing in biodiesel that would otherwise be a food crop (well, soy, but it's not the most efficient source of oil - mostly biodiesel is derived from canola and rapeseed oil - you wanna eat that?). You're thinking of ethanol which is derived from corn and wheat. And, yeah, I do think biofuels are the answer to our fuel situation. It's still a crop. There is a limit to the arable land available on this earth. Either less food is grown, and starvation is increased, or you destroy more forested areas to grow the plants needed. Water/irrigation will also be a problem. What?! What do you think is going on with our current source of fuel....seriously. Do you think our current fuel source is sustainable? GMFB! And don't get me started on the state of agriculture in America...unless you actually know what you're talking about.

and deforestation/destruction of what little remains of undeveloped land (e.g. rainforests) You're talking about ethanol here. I'm talking about biodiesel. Different fuel. same effect. ethanol also has the same agricultural implications. clearly we need alternative fuel sources but it seems that there won't be one catch all answer. perhaps we need to be looking at multiple sources of fuel in the future to minimize the impact of any one. My point was, I don't advocate ethanol - it's not an efficient fuel source, although it is a "biofuel" - I meant to distinguish it from biodiesel which is a sustainable fuel source. That's all. Yes, looking at all alternatives is the best way to figure out something that is better than what the modus operandi is - what we're doing isn't working.

seems to me YOU are just looking at the articles you want. food prices are already rising because of biofuels. The US gov't and businesses are "encouraging" 3rd world countries to provide biofuels at the expense of the environment, and their own people (e.g. Brazil). It's all over the place. But I guess it's easier to hum a simplistic mantra "biofuels are the answer". there is no silver bullet There is nothing in biodiesel that would otherwise be a food crop (well, soy, but it's not the most efficient source of oil - mostly biodiesel is derived from canola and rapeseed oil - you wanna eat that?). You're thinking of ethanol which is derived from corn and wheat. And, yeah, I do think biofuels are the answer to our fuel situation.

and deforestation/destruction of what little remains of undeveloped land (e.g. rainforests) You're talking about ethanol here. I'm talking about biodiesel. Different fuel.

Now that's an intelligent point of view. There are some really interesting developments in biofuels. The big one being developed right now is an Algae-based fuel - isn't that crazy? What really interests me is finding an alternative solution to being dependent on foreign fuels...and finding a sustainable way to do it, which will bring the price of fuel back to an affordable level. Biofuels seem to have the most options with very few drawbacks. What I've seen in my hometown is farmers who haven't been able to make a living on crops they used to (apples, asparagus) because they are now imported cheaper from other countries, and those farmers are now planting canola and other biofuel crops that will be more profitable. Ethanol is more likely to be derived from corn grown on "rainforest" land, not the oils used for biodiesel. I'm not advocating ethanol use, just biodiesel.

Your answer is google? Oh please, you can find anything via google to support any viewpoint you want. Read up on Biofuels a bit more. And that article only points to "potential" issues...you're gonna have to do better than that.