STP

http://www.army.mil/institution/armypublicaffairs/pdf/fm2-22-3.pdf So interrogations shouldn't be any harsher than a typical police questioning?

Addington used the analogy of a soccer game with us as the blindfolded goalie trying to prevent the unseen adversaries from hitting the goal. What methods would have to be used in actuality to counter the threat? Also it would've been interesting to see how Gore/Lieberman would have handled 911. I suspect they would have seen the necessity of acting quickly to the Taliban. Who's to say how that Democratic administration would have dealt with Iraq as a potential threat to stability in the Middle East?

Then why didn't President Obama disavow the use of techniques outlined in Appendix M of the Army Field Manual in regards to psychological 'torture'?

Just a short partial answer to JosephH's post: I'm trying to avoid some of the other potential implications of accepting your premises, for instance, that the 2000 elections were a sham or that enough foreknowledge of 911 was available to prevent the full scope of the operation from occurring. ( not that you said any of these things )

I could be totally wrong. I held similar beliefs as you about the Bush administration and the ‘neoconservative’ influence on his cabinet. But, I’m trying to look at things differently, revising my mental model of what’s going on to achieve the semblance of objectivity or intellectual honesty (inasmuch as that can exist). For instance, there are certain things implied when using words like ‘neoconservative’ and ‘clean break’. So, cultural biases that are difficult to admit consciously can exist among other things that influence your thinking. I reserve the right to change my mind and break from the partisan straitjacket or the constraints of historical forces or whatever else you want to call it. It’s like that 1930’s Mystery Wall example (Climbers’ Board). There are a certain set of facts known. Then there are some other facts that can be deducted such as angle of face determined by shadows. You could make an educated guess on the location but sometimes if the model you have in your mind is incorrect then the final answer is wrong (either inductive reasoning or deductive reasoning erroneously applied). Perhaps a crucial piece was missing or not enough information was known. It might not neccesarily be forcing the information or shoehorning the facts to fit the model. If that happens however, that’s ok because hopefully someone will come along to add another piece and then everything changes. Someone could make a wild guess on a location for the alpine crag with the joint set, the set of features that lends itself to be the most prominent evidence. That person could say, “Hmm, where have I seen something similar.” and vaguely recall some place like Sloan (although the rock is probably all wrong or it doesn't actually have joint sets) where there’s some unusual jointing or partings. Short of having a photograph it’s difficult to go by memory alone. Also, as someone mentioned if the negatives were reversed then the orientation of the joints and the background silhouette would be misleading. The best guess, I suppose, remains the Alpine Lakes area but that shouldn’t preclude further input because sometimes the unlikeliest ideas yield a radical departure from the norm that opens the way for resolution. Fear of criticism shouldn't be the sole criterion for rejection. My argument (and we won’t know short of having a parallel universe) is things wouldn’t have been vastly different under a Democratic administration in the aftermath of 911 and with the trajectory of terrorism and our responses to it that occurred prior to 911. This is not to say things are predetermined or inevitable but given the pattern of the past, predictions of the future can be based on what we’ve already seen as well as explanations of the present. My disagreement is that I don’t believe the Bush administration was a singular exception. The anomaly could be said to be 911 rather than the ‘predetermined’ policy position of the Bush administration. As far as the Shoah, given the history of Europe or rather the history of the Jews it’s not very difficult to see that event occurring in the absence of a particular man if the cultural structure exists for the event to be likely and a confluence of events occurs (as opposed to the ‘great’ man theory as the paradigm of history ). Is all this twisted or what?

There's a reference to Appendix M in the Army Field Manual here: More Confusion on Renditions: The Role of Ostensibly Liberal Bloggers

I like the beginning of this one: "Don't ask me about these words..." [video:youtube]0Cz8LNdFdew

Ya, I agree with you to a point. I've read some of that stuff before. I just don't believe the ideology is confined to the Republicans. It follows the power shift. Do you get what I'm saying?

Is Utube great or what? [video:youtube]S4bqbA2NHFQ

[video:youtube]9ncw729HBYc

So my completely off-the-wall unsupported prediction is Dow dropping to reset at around 5000 (circa 1995 levels) sometime early or mid 2009.

Definitely the Love and Rockets version. [video:youtube]-ALRLZQf42s And speaking of Love and Rockets, have you heard the story of Jack Parsons? The Magical Father of American Rocketry

I don't know if I buy the issue that the Bush administration was an aberration, neoconservative or otherwise. If 911 hadn't happened then the actions of the Bush administration could possibly have centered around some semi-privatization scheme for Social Security on the domestic front. With regard to foreign policy we may have seen the evolution of Cold War policy structure in such things as the withdrawal from the ABM treaty. But we perhaps would have seen none or few of the changes initiated after 911. Would a Gore administration have acted much differently after 911? BTW, methods such as 'extraordinary rendition' were practiced as early as 1995 during the Clinton administration. So, you can see the trajectory beginning before Bush came to power. Regarding things such as 'torture' etc., I'd venture to say that these things existed prior to Bush and at least as far back as the 60's and 70's when the Democrats controlled Congress. Perhaps it's just a matter of scale and scope after 911. So what I'm saying is that Bush is sort of a fall guy for methods that I'd postulate would have just as well occurred under a Democratic administration given the necessity of responding to 911. You gotta ask yourself also why there weren't investigations leading to impeachment or other actions meant to censure the Bush administration (with the lone exception of the Scooter Libby case). And, why won't there be any 'war crimes' investigation or other legal actions surrounding warrantless surveillance or torture? ...Because Democrats are complicit in authorizing and sanctioning these actions...

Reliable? First, you'd have to make a distinction between physical torture and psychological torture. Psychological techniques including sensory deprivation, sleep deprivation, and sensory overload have been shown to lead to loss of resistance of will and eventually to the breakdown of self. Then, you'd have to look at the desired effect. For instance, if the function was to elicit outside response resulting in outrage among the Muslim community and motivation to avenge what they perceive as injustice, then perhaps it hit its mark, the justification and perpetuation of war. Maybe the prisons were actually pilot studies with live experimentation in a real world environment apart from the clinical setting where the Nuremberg Code governs ethical medical behavior. Seems like a perverse way to accelerate knowledge but nevertheless effective. Third possibility: There is no systematic program of torture, that 'bad apples' spoiled [the image of] the bunch.

[video:youtube]nTeLI5dUzKw sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

An online gov't glossary with the definition and meaning of words like 'torture', 'rendition', ...? My general impression is that hasn't been a sea change with respect to governance and projection of power, that the greater part of 'change' resides primarily in image and perception. As a side note, I'm curious to see how far Obama is willing to take the rhetoric as a catalyst for change on the economic issue. Amid anger, Obama seeks right tone

The rhizome an dthe ant: Rhizome (philosophy) [video:youtube]ozkBd2p2piU

Trust but verify.

Must have been bad intelligence. Obama set to allow Bush-era ‘torture flights’ Ya, foreign media is suspect by its very nature. How about a domestic source? Obama preserves renditions as counter-terrorism tool

--inaugural address by President Obama

Seems like a double bind for certain elements of the gov't to reconcile transparency with a need for secrecy. Even if there is more openness, certain information such as methodology must remain classified. See John Yoo's take (not that I agree with him): Obama Made a Rash Decision on Gitmo The reality is that things like extraordinary rendition and warrantless surveillance will continue. For instance, some of this will be outsourced and occur outside the reach of FOIA. Don't agree with me? What about Obama's about-face on FISA and immunity for telecoms? [video:youtube]sVPa46W3uMY

Taxes, housekeeper said to derail Kennedy’s bid Favorite for High Court Failed to Pay Maid's Taxes

For the life of me, I can't figure out where you came up with that false dichotomy with your attribution of winning to Bush's initial action. Shouldn't it be: Soldiers and civilians wouldn't be dying in the first place if there hadn't been a rush to war?

Speaking of Bush, don't forget to thank him for the situation in Iraq. -- National Guard Black Hawks Leave Oregon For Iraq

University of Oregon huh? That's where Ken Kesey went. There's a lot of ways to answer your rant. I'd have to say it's about living. Do what you have to do but don't forget to take advantage of opportunities. You might meet a cute attractive girl in that class who feels the same way. You might end up getting a job because you made a friend in that class. Ten/twenty years from now, you might recall something from that class that you will tell your son or daughter to help them on their way. Besides if money is an issue, then apply for in-state tuition. Drivers licence, voting card, etc to establish residency.