Good2Go

Sounds like you missed out on all the good climbing in your haste. There are 3-4 fun pitches in the 5.8-ish range between the notch and summit, but you have to stay close to the ridge and ignore the guidebook instructions to drop down to the sandy ledge and traverse to the S below the summit to the path of least resistance. The LJT pitch (left side) is also harder and better than anything I encountered in my one trip up the Tooth.

Nice adventure! I went down the Cascadian a few weeks ago, and while I agree it's not as bad as reputed, if you had to hike up the Ingall's Creek trail to get to the Long's Pass turnoff, you went down the south shoulder trail, not the Cascadian. I went down the south shoulder trail earlier this summer, and it was quite a bit better than the Cascadian (but, the Cascadian is still faster). The Cascadian trail breaks off W/SW from the main trail down from the false summit at around 8k and currently connects directly to the Long's turnoff. I say "currently", because the bottom of that "trail" gets overgrown and re-established every year.

Much heavier? Maybe by percentage, but certainly not by feel. Too expensive? That's relative, but they're reusable and re-sellable. They also have the added advantage of allowing you to use your favorite fat sticks in the resort with your alpine bindings and in the BC with your tech bindings. IME, stack height is meaningless on touring bindings, performance wise, but I do everything in my power to avoid skiing hardpack, so maybe I'm not the best judge.

Mounting plates are way easier to install, and you can re-use them if you want to get some new skis. And you can still sell the old ones, because they aren't all fubar'd up from the inserts.

I agree with Jens, you won't need axe or crampons to get to the toe of the N ridge. Aluminum axe and crampons can be handy though for getting down the false summit in the dark (which is inevitably the condition I find it in when I do the complete NR). Hardmen like Jens can find their way around that hard, steep snowfield in the dark (seemingly with ease), but that hasn't been the case for me. Also, I descended Ulrich's last year (in the dark). Didn't seem "that much" worse to me than the Cascadian, but there are two raps, which adds a little bit of time and fuss. The very bottom does suck pretty bad. Weird crusty soil (think kitty litter over slab) and steep walls funnel you into a final bushwhack to the trail. On the upside, it spits you out at right at the Longs Pass trail. I'd go Cascadian if I were you. BTW - I'll be part of a crew of 4 heading for the "classic" version on Sat, so see you all up there.

How'd you end up so far to the right of the crack on the W face of NEWS and did you make it work? That crux is a beast for fat fingered (and bodied) individuals such as myself!

Careno Crag has a ton of great pitches, and you can mix and match the multi pitch routes and/or stay on ledge and do some great cragging up there. Favorites include the first pitch of Regular Route, second pitch Bale-Kramer, Corner Pockets and the bolted pitch to the right of it, Swinging Affair, etc. The Castle also has a ton of stuff that is often overlooked, e.g., Brass Balls and the Old Gray Mare/Crack of Doom linkup (belay at chains above Devils Fright), etc.

It was snowing occasionally, but still warm enough to remind me how crappy I am at climbing at Smith. Fun day though. Thanks all.

I'm heading to Bend this weekend and was planning to climb on Friday, but the forecast is saying partly cloudy, with a high of 37. Any Smith locals/regulars have an opinion whether this would be too cold for "enjoyable" climbing at Smith?

Some dude on the ground caught me leading the money pitch of Ancient Art a couple weeks ago. I should've done a yoga pose or something, but I didn't have the stones

Got mine at SG last week. Looks great! Several new-to-me routes added to the tick list.

Wrong again CF. I'll try to keep it simple for you. The warranty I referenced is provided under WA law (RCW 62A.2-314 warranty of merchantability and RCW 62A.2-315 warranty of fitness for a particular purpose, to be exact), not Cilo's policy. The only way a retailer can waive these warranties is to expressly disclaim them in a contract. The only contract between me and Cilo was consummated when I purchased the pack through their site, and there was no express warranty disclaimer presented during that process. I never asked Cilo for special treatment, only to what I am entitled under the law.

CF - You can try to insult me and dismiss my points all you like but it won't change the facts (that you didn't bother to read - like the sales guy at FF telling me others had voiced the same complaints). Rather than speculating on how I might have brought all of this on myself, why not contact your buddy at Cilo and ask him WTF? Or better yet, why not let him speak for himself? Kevino - Thanks for your consideration, but I gave up hope of getting anything from Cilo months ago when I broke down and bought a replacement pack. This isn't a case of miscommunication. I'm sure they received my two unanswered emails as well as the letter I sent them along with my pack. The reason I posted in this thread was/is to let other people who are considering buying Cilo NWD packs know about their practices with respect to manufacturing (i.e., you gotta finish the last step yourself), warranty and customer service. Mission accomplished.

Let's keep it apples-to-apple, eh? BD recommends seam sealing their tents to make them more waterproof. Their tents won't totally fall apart after a handful of uses if you don't do it, and BD doesn't make it a condition of warranty. The note from Cilo that came along with my pack said seam sealing was RECOMMENDED, not REQUIRED. I chose not to do it because I thought it was about waterproofing (which I didn't care about). It would have been nice to know it was necessary to keep it from falling apart and that it was a condition to warranty coverage. Finally, there was so much degeneration throughout the material that I would have had to coat about 1/2 the pack in SeamGrip to fix the damage. Does that seem reasonable to you after 6 uses? And, if repair was my only option under the warranty, I would normally expect the manufacturer to handle it. I even sent Cilo the pack at my cost, asking for a fresh look and repair or replacement. I have never heard back from them since. I doubt you'd accept the same treatment with a smile Gene.

You (and Kevino) got it totally wrong. The Cilo site says no refunds on NWD (not no warranty). Here's the text (my italics): "{All packs made from our Dyneema fabric are not refundable. They are considered final sales. This includes any type of Dyneema: NWD WorkSacks and W/NW Dyneema WorkSacks or even left over woven Dyneema WorkSacks. We will work with our customers to achieve satisfaction, but the nature of the materials in these packs precludes our ability to refund the purchase price." And as for durability, here's what they say about NWD: "Designed for maximum strength with the absolute minimum weight, our Non-Woven Dyneema® fabrics are truly amazing. The 20L NWD® takes our classic leader's pack, drops weight and adds strength. The light weight NWD® material used in this pack can be punctured, but it is incredibly hard to tear. Simply put, you can abuse this pack to your hearts content on an alpine climb and it will keep on going.." Again, I wasn't looking for a refund. I asked for repair or replacement. And, I was totally polite in all my of my dealings with them. They stopped responding after our initial correspondence, so I'm not sure how "being chill and listening" would have helped my cause. They say they'll work with customers to achieve satisfaction. That didn't happen in my case. And, I never slammed anybody personally. Cilo signed its email "CiloGear Ninja". I don't know if that's your buddy Graham and I don't care. My comments are about my experience dealing with a business. I chose Cilo products based on recommendations on this site. In hindsight, I wish somebody would have mentioned that you have to complete their manufacturing process on NWD packs, by fully seam sealing them with SeamGrip. If not, the pack will quickly fall apart under normal use and there will be no warranty. If I had known that, I would not have bought it. Seems to me that should be explicitly stated on the Cilo site (it's not). For posterity, here is the response I got from Cilo on my initial warranty request: Hi Aaron, Thanks for the photos of the pack; they help us understand what's going on with your pack much better. We take any sort of pack malfunctioning very seriously and have had very few complaints about the NWD packs. From the photos, it looks like the seams on the shoulders were not seam sealed after you got the pack. Due to the nature of non-woven dyneema, initial seam sealing is necessary. Because of this, we include seam sealing instructions and a tube of Seam Grip with all new NWD packs. At this point, the best bet would be to place a layer of clear tape over the separated fabric and Seam Grip it into place. That should keep the fabric from separating any more and make the pack last quite a bit longer. CiloGear Ninja As my pictures show, their suggested solution was not a viable.

Thanks for setting me straight CF. I should have thought about other peoples viewpoints and just quietly accepted the fisting I got from CIlo. I'll try to be more like you from now on.

I wasn't asking for a refund. I asked them to repair or replace the $150 pack that I'd bought from them a few months earlier that I'd only used about 6 times. The pack was never abused. I never climbed chimneys with it, nor was it ever hauled. The main cause of the damage seemed come from stuffing it into a bigger pack (to carry it up to a wall, so I could use it as a lightweight climbing pack). The spider lines appeared when the material was folded in any manner. My initial thought was that it was a bad batch of material and Cilo would probably be eager to find out what caused such a premature failure. Obviously, I was wrong. And, I'm glad to hear you guys have had better experiences with Cilo than I did, but I have no fucking idea what that has to do with my story. I'm telling you the straight up truth about my experience. My pictures tell the tale. Sorry if it shatters your illusions about one of your favorite brands. I'm sure you would be equally pissed if they did the same thing to you.

My first email to Cilo was at the end of April 2012, they responded about 3 weeks later, I responded to that message the same day. They failed to respond, so in June I sent them my pack along with a letter, re-stating the facts and asking for a response. I have never heard anything back since, nor have they sent back the pack (which was unusable, unless I covered in packing tape and dipped it in SeamGrip). I wound up buying a BD summit pack at Feathered Friends (which is when the sales guy told me about other people having the same issue) for $70 to replace the Cilo, which has turned out to be way more durable. BTW - I am sharing this experience/info not to convince you Ben, or anyone else for that matter, that I am right, but rather to make sure folks have the full story about Cilo before investing in their packs, especially ones made our of NWD. If you buy a Cilo pack, you will have to perform what seems to me is a key manufacturing step (seam sealing) or it will fall apart and there will be no warranty coverage. They don't mention that in their marketing hype.

Damn, dude... this sounds hardcore. I suspect there was a lot of neglected responsibility on your own part... were you a total ass about everything? Did they ask you questions that you never answered, therefor they never could come to a conclusion on the best way to handle your warranty claim? Did you give the pack back to them completely fucked up (not just the torn seams)? etc...? It's been my experience that people are never innocent when they report heinous accounts of companies being almost abusive to their patient, forgiving buyers. And every account I've seen of people having problems with Cilo packs, most of which damage due to accidents/abuse, Cilo has either fixed it for free or just swapped out for a new pack. Therefor, I think your account isn't the full story. You're wrong Ben. I didn't do anything to cause Cilo to treat me worse than their other customers. When I first noticed the damage I sent Cilo an email (see copy below) with a bunch of pictures of the damage to my pack, fully expecting them to just tell me how to get warranty coverage. As you can see, I didn't complain or insult them in my message, just a normal warranty coverage request. I certainly did not anticipate that they would deny coverage. They took weeks to respond to that message, and when they finally did, they commented that it was too bad I didn't seam seal the pack, because w/out that no warranty. Their suggestion was to put packing tape over the tears in the NWD fabric and then paint SeamGrip over that (which would have resulted in painting about 50% of pack with glue - seriously). I responded that (1) they never mentioned seam sealing as a condition to warranty, (2) the material was also failing in the body, well away from seams (i.e., there is warrantable damage that had nothing to do with seam sealing) and (3) I'd barely gotten any use out of the pack. I also sent them more pictures to support those claims. They never responded following that message, notwithstanding that I sent them the pack at my own cost, so they could inspect it and followed up with another message (they never responded to that message or returned the pack - even after, as a last resort, I threatened to take them to small claims court if they didn't respond). I would also note that you can find other complaints about them if you do a little searching online and I got the same story from a sales guy at Feathered Friends (who told me that some of their customers had the same problem with Cilo, and they're now trying to tell all Cilo buyers at FF that they have to seam seal or no warranty - EVEN THOUGH THAT IS NOT MENTIONED ON THEIR WEB SITE OR IN THE NOTE THEY SEND WITH THE TUBE OF SEAM GRIP). I got screwed by Cilo Ben, plain and simple. Here's what I said in my initial warranty request email: Hey Cilo, I bought a 20L NWD Worksack from you last July (see attached email for order receipt) and it has totally fallen apart, after not many uses I might add. Below are some pictures of the damage. Pretty much has just started pulling apart where the shoulder straps are attached at the top. I'd like to return it for a new one on warranty, but I suspect that the NWD material may be ill thought out or defective for the intended purpose (rock climbing summit pack). For reference, I've retired similar Black Diamond and Arcteryx packs that had far less wear and damage, after many, many more uses. Please advise. Here are some pics of the damage.

I had a terrible experience with Cilo and feel compelled to warn others. Cilo has great designs but their marketing is a bunch of hype and their customer service and warranty support is even worse. I bought two packs from them in the past two years (a summit pack made out of NWD material and a 30L made out of the cheaper material). The summit pack came with a tube of SeamGrip and a note suggesting that they recommend sealing the seams. I didn't bother sealing it, as I did not expect to use it in the rain (or care if it was waterproof in any way). What the note did not say however, is that the pack would totally fall apart without the sealing. Sure enough, that summit pack began getting little spider cracks in the material after just a couple uses. Those cracks turned into tears (not emanating from the seams, I might add) within half a dozen uses. I tried to get Cilo to give me a new pack or fix the one I had, but they said no warranty if you don't seam seal the pack. (I even sent them the pack to inspect. They never responded and did not return the pack.) That warranty condition was never stated on their web site or in the note that came with the pack (if it had I would have sent it back, because I'm not willing to pay $150 for a summit pack that's not fully finished). I tried to address the issue w/ Cilo, but after telling me no warranty, they just stopped responding to my emails. Here's what Cilo says about that pack on their site: "The light weight NWD® material used in this pack can be punctured, but it is incredibly hard to tear. Simply put, you can abuse this pack to your hearts content on an alpine climb and it will keep on going." Based on my experience, this is a total misrepresentation. It's also worth mentioning that I have used the the 30L on a few alpine rock climbs (e.g., North Ridge of Stuart this summer) and in my experience it is very fragile. The bottom of mine is now a massive patchwork of repairs.

I know it's a long shot, but I'm heading to Moab later this week for about 10 days and my partner bailed on me last minute. I'd especially like to hit Castleton (again), but I'm up for cragging around Moab or the Creek. Got tons of gear and experience.

Was still there on Saturday, with a freshly marked X.

Climbed the N Ridge last weekend. The closest fire is in the Eightmile Lake area. There was no fire on Cashmere, as far as I could tell. As long as the prevailing wind was coming from the west, there was no smoke. Smoke wasn't an issue for our trip, and if the current forecast holds true, you should be fine.

I'd recommend reading the case before believing the author's conclusions. I suspect she's reaching a bit in her assessment of its scope. I couldn't find it online using her references, or through a cursory search of the 9th Circuit's published opinions. Seems fishy to me. Anybody have a link?

That map is confusing. According to this one (also from the FS site), Stuart is out of the permit zone. Which is correct?