Raindawg

Hey. Buckaroo! You've made many interesting points but I have to disagree with your latter statement. One of the key environmental points of trad climbing is to place your own gear and remove it, thus leaving the rock in a decent state for the next climber, for generations to come. Sport-climbing is the antithesis of this and leaves a permanent deteriorating metallic trail for all to follow wherever one pleases. You want to dumb down the second pitch of City Park even more?....add a few more bolts and make it a sport-like climb...check out "Numbah Ten" just a few dozen yards away. And "RuMR: Nice to see that you continue to honor me with one of my favorite quotes."

Bravo for this topic: a discussion about the ethics of a single bolt. We need THOUSANDS more of these to cover each and every one of these permanent alterations to the finite rock environment. As such, EVERY bolt should be an ethical decision. Can you top-rope your "sport-climb"? Then get rid of all of the bolts below your upper anchors. Face it: climbing used to be at the cutting edge of environmentalism and now it's at the back of the pack.

OH, SNAP! OLD NEWS! MY BAD!!! Better....read.... "spray" !!!

These folks want $10 million because of an unfortunate incident involving a mountain goat in the Olympic Mountains. Mt. Goat Jackpot Law Suit And check out the many associated comments.

And be aware that this is a controversial route and if you're thoughtful you might want to investigate the ethical issues before you make the choice whether or not to endorse it by climbing it. There are many pages of chatter about this on cc.com but in short, it's an illegal, power-drilled sport climb on a mountain in a wilderness area. You decide if you care or not.

The swingers ARE climbers. It takes climbing skills to get up Monkey Face and rig the anchors, and the swingers seem to have a method for descending the rope after their stunt. So it ain't like it's "those other people" causing climbers trouble.

Would you like to use a straw?

Huh? Where dat? 'coupla minutes outta the meadow? Glad you had fun and moved on to get at somethin' big agin.

She was a wonderful student in our University's small community: Eatonville hiker who died in fall identified.

Go ahead and start it, oh wise man of superior character. No, better yet, I'll start it! "bye, bye, repetitive Raindawg! Don't disrupt our playground! No one here likes your opinion, nor style, nor even your profession, blah, blah, blah...go find another place to play because "it's all good" in our sandbox!" Enjoy the fantasy! :[] Have a great life,"DRep"! I mean that!

Is it still "leave no trace" if you leave a hole where the bones were? Despite the site clause against personal attacks, still another comes out of the woodwork with nothing better than an ad hominem attack against a purveyor of unpopular views, even to the point of ridiculing his profession! I shouldn't even respond to this but FYI, the places where I work were robbed by their own people over 3,000 years ago, and when I'm done with my job, it's a better, more dignified place than how I found it. And I've spent many tens of thousands of dollars conserving what I find and its environment for the benefit of even you and your great-grandchildren. What have you contributed to human heritage? How does your foolish attack on my profession contribute to this topic? Go take your mean ignorance and get lost.

Don't call me "Don"; I'm "Raindawg" on this site, "DRep". I "deride" sport-climbing because of what it is: the antithesis of the clean recreation movement that has been progressing now for at least 40 years. Enjoy your convenience thrills if you like, it's no doubt very fun, but a growing number of us see it as unenvironmental and "leaving way too much trace" on OUR public land and I predict that the future will be on my side. You can petend that no one objects, but that's just fantasy. My "imposition" of beliefs is merely an expression of an opinion of which you obviously disagree. Take it or leave it. It's not "imposed" on you and any reader of this site has the ability to scroll-on-by any message coming from "Raindawg". In fact, I recommend that very thing to anyone who is afraid of ideas that might not conform to their own. Who taught you that ethics aren't important nor worthy of contemplation? Your so-called "challenge" is absurd. As noted above, nothing is being "imposed" unless you think an expression of a dissenting perspective is unacceptble. By the way, I'm not seeking the respect of the so-called "community" .. but you'll probably get your wish, though, because I've just about had my fill....as have several others who have for the most part abandoned this site. Enjoy the complacency while it's fun! Good luck, "DRep"!

Is it still "leave no trace" if you leave a hole where the bones were? Utter and sheer ignorance of the highest scale....I hope you enjoyed that. Feel better now? Run along now and join your like-minded mateys.

i think that you and others have the intellectual ability to see that calling you a "blowhard" has no bearing necessarily on the caller's lack of tolerance for opposing viewpoints; you might simply be a blowhard, simple as that. at least you've matured past the point of posting pics of the developmentally disabled in a piss-poor attempt at smearing those you disagree with; congratulations. Clowns are developmentally disabled? Or funny-lookin' guys with big ears? There seems to be little room on this site for other viewpoints without it getting ugly. Next step: bypass "the community" and go straight to "The Man". "He" seems, with increasing frequency, to understand the concept of environmental preservation over the long-term, rather than many here who seem to think that they can do whatever they want, however they want, wherever they want, to OUR finite public land. Guess what...you can't. Enjoy the no rules-anything goes-free ride while it lasts cuz it ain't hard to explain what's wrong with it and lots of folks are catching on. Climb clean or lose your "unbridled" freedom the cheap, dirty and unintrospective way. Oh no! The door almost hit me on the butt on my way out!

1) Yah....Buckaroo's talkin' to you. Do a search in Display Search Name: "Raindawg". Keyword = Ryan, and go back at least 5 years and see how much I appreciate all of this in context. In short, I don't. Do a little research. You should be embarrassed. You probably don't know my age (irrelevant) , how long I've been climbing (a substantial number of years) , or more ridiculously, whether I'm "better" or not (maybe I am, maybe I'm not...how could you possibly know and by whose standards?? more importantly, who cares??)...and yes I do consider your comments personal and mean-spirited. 2) You have no respect for me nor my profession...it is irrelevant to this discussion other than I use the skills I've learned through mountaineering to pursue exploration which outside of your sphere seems widely appreciated. You and others bring it up in a bizarre ad hominen spin to attack my environmental stances. I guess it's the best you can come up with. You should be admonished under the new rules on this site for personal attacks. If you think I'm a "blowhard", it only exposes your intolerance for perspectives other than your own and I would hope that this site is open to alternative viewpoints. By the way your responses lately have been very crude. Happy now? Got a response/some attention? Should I post a happy clown picture for you rather than a crass dog dragging his butt across the floor? That's all I got to say to you, mister. B'bye. For the rest of the readers enjoying the floor-show, I hope you're more open-minded and tolerant of alternative perspectives than the guy who claims I'm not. And for those who might be disappointed that I haven't posted a picture, enjoy:

"Don't like it?" It's an illegal rap-bolted sport-climb, on a mountain, in a wilderness area. You're right: "Don't climb it!" Boycott it for what it is. Someday, officially or otherwise, it will likely be erased. I hope the route doesn't get chopped, how lame. I was heavy into 4xing and an avid rock crawler before getting back into climbing. I've seen first hand what can happen when a user group starts overly policing themselves and turning on eachother. Some encouraged others to turn in ileagal wheelers and would point out trail damage to the "athorities". In the end we all suffered when the ORV parks got shut down. The "moral high ground folks" imposed their ethics on all of us and killed the sport in the state of WA. I don't think hikers and other user groups have a problem with IB. Just let it go man Sorry, brother. Ain't lettin' it go, and I'm by far not the only one with the same perspective. Future generations will thank us for preserving our finite wilderness.

QUICK SOLUTION:

Mr. RuMR whom I've never met: Have you read the new site guidelines about conduct and personal attacks? Time to reassess your behavior and learn to address alternative perspectives in a civil manner. Moderators...please send him packing!

The "SOP" noted above is "LAME". Plenty of folks don't care about personl "proj"'s and it is seen as selfish and obstructive. And the above cited "reference chart" which claims there is only one rule (don't be an a-hole)...is literally FULL OF RULES!!! And one more thing....the oft-commented upon Smith Rocks draw-poacher video: after watching that confrontation several times, I'm not sure who is more ridiculous: the guy stripping the route, or the characters who think they have a right to leave their stuff there as long as they want because the route is apparently extra-hard thus justifying the sport-climbing version of a Himalayan siege-climb. Plenty of laughs in that scenario inspired by both sides. Here's a rule: with very few exceptions (e.g. rap stations), TAKE YOUR TOYS BACK HOME WHEN YOU'RE DONE PLAYING FOR THE DAY.

"Don't like it?" It's an illegal rap-bolted sport-climb, on a mountain, in a wilderness area. You're right: "Don't climb it!" Boycott it for what it is. Someday, officially or otherwise, it will likely be erased.

stealing is stealing regardless if you rationalize it as cleaning up trash. One draw on a sport climb is "booty" and can be considered "trash". A string of draws is obviously left for a reason and not considered "trash". By dawg's (oops I mean rainman...I think raindawg = rainman) flawed logic, I am morally allowed to cleanup trail signs, mailboxes and swing sets. Anything left on public lands is free game as it can all be considered "trash". Moral citizens find it easy to leave items for public good instead of stealing them. Besides, what point is there in stealing draws? Personal gain is not a viable reason as what do you do with a big pile of draws? What point is it to have more than 12 draws? Stealing to make a point about excessive visual impact? The $40 impact to the sport climbing community is actually trivial. So stealing draws is stupid and bad for personal karma. A post above is by "Rainman", not "Raindawg", but I'll take the bait and respond with a perspective that is usually not considered within the contemporary climbing "community" group-think. So....let's say you have a nice KFC bucket 'o chicken lunch and leave the profuse packaging trailside when you walk away,.... am I stealing if I clean it up?? There's another school of thought apparently beyond the comprehension of many that sees leaving draws on a climb as the selfish equivalent of not picking up after your dog crapped in the public park. You done climbing actively? Then clean up your mess. If you're so bad, then you can easily replace them when you're actively working the route, right? Otherwise, quick-draws and such are no better than a tossed bag of Taco Bell wrappers, i.e., PERSONAL trash abandoned on public property and worthy of disposal. As a climber myself, I realize that quick-draws and 'biners cost more than a Big Mac container so the options I recommend are: 1) gather them all together and clip them a few bolts up so they can't be "stolen" by the average passer-byer, yet send a message to the arrogant offender who probably thinks they can leave whatever they want, whenever they want, on public property, or... 2) remove them and deposit them with the North Bend rangers with a note indicating that you discovered this litter at Little Si or wherever. In short....bad puppy! clean up your mess! Do you think that because you're a "climber" that you're above or exempt from the basic rules of use of public property?

Not done.

The "Fun Forest". If you can't find the next bolt, look somewhere near your waist. Have some dignity and top-rope these short but amusing little romps.