Raindawg

Oh...O.K.....So I guess if convenience is the norm, why not add an exciting Via Ferrata to the mix for the convenience of those who don't want to deal with the nuisance of ropes, or how about a sales kiosk on Logger's Ledge with some guidebooks, webbing, along with some snacks to be consumed at the picnic table on top? Your perspective can be used to justify anything. Time to dust off this favorite!:

Yakov Smirnoff is not Irish and neither am I. Who cares? I, among others, care. Putting up a sport climb attracts crowds like flies to dung. Except the dung doesn't go away...it's been permanently installed....and the flies keep comin'!

Thanks for the insult...it contributed little. I've participated minimally at best on this site for many months because of attitudes such as yours (and a good number of others have likewise left.). But I happen to genuinely care about Castle Rock where I have climbed since 1976, and where most of the routes have been spared the nonsense taking place just about everywhere else in Leavenworth, or, actually, most any other American "crag". The concept of "clean climbing" or "leave little or not trace" is regularly rejected by many climbers (that is, if it's even known or understood) in preference for convenience in the form of permanent traces. It's sickening, and ironically, it's "The Man" who seems to notice such things, rather than climbers, and restrictions are increasing. If you "no linger give a rip", why comment?

Many of us first climbed BB many years ago, many times, and we didn't need the convenience bolts nor will this traditionally relatively clean "crag" become another victim to lazy sport-bolting.(And do you really think that your self-defined "crag" status allows the right for anyone to add permanent fixtures on public property at their pleasure??) Dude...YOU deal with it!

Just about any rock climb can be made safer or more convenient by adding fixed pro/anchors. Folks at Castle Rock, though, have been climbing (and falling) for years without the new additions, and such permanent installations are especially unwelcome next to cracks. What's next? Bolts tend to breed.

Years ago there used to be a "girl" named "Amber" who was always looking for a belay-buddy. Maybe "she"'s still around?

What you don't understand, bro....is it ain't clean. Sorry to be the one to give you the history lesson.... http://climbaz.com/chouinard72/chouinard.html'>http://climbaz.com/chouinard72/chouinard.html Read the entire catalog and then come back and tell us why what they said over 40 years ago isn't right-on, or why you now think what you are doing is appropriate. And p.s......feel free to substitute "bolts" for "pitons" in the essays. Once again... http://climbaz.com/chouinard72/chouinard.html

That anchor next to a protectable crack only serves to bail-out the weenies who aren't up to climbing Brass Balls...seems to me there are other reasonable escapes. Sport routes of any kind don't belong on Castle Rock. The Icicle is being ruined by them and expect to see them soon on Snow Creek Wall, etc. But it sets a precedent. Another precedent is what happened to the bolts added to DDD to dumb it down. CHOP! I would not be surprised by more of this:

Raindawg coming briefly out of retirement from cc.com to say: Keep the new bolts off of Castle Rock; folks have been climbing with a minimum of them for DECADES! You might recall what happened a few years ago when DDD was sport-bolted by some people who considered it "too dangerous" to lead it trad, and thought they were doing everyone a favor because the route wasn't getting enough "traffic". Their "improvements" disappeared not long afterwards. Mark wrote: The question is, "why"? Do you really want to see more, rather than less, people at the crags? (Been to the Icicle lately? It's overrun by the Pad People and everyone else!) Did you ever climb at Smith Rocks before it became a bolted "paradise"? It might have been less "handy", but it was also a lot less crowded and the rock less altered. (Maybe you like crowds???) Speak for yourself. "New" doesn't necessarily equate with "good" and "change" doesn't guarantee "progress". It's not pointless. It's called eco-mindedness and clean-climbing and it is becoming the future.

Item(s) found at base of J-Y crag in Icicle Creek, Leavenworth, yesterday. Provide a complete description and we'll arrange a return.

Stepping out of exile to celebrate a (partial) victory: United States Department of Interior, Director's Order #41, May 13, 2013. Expect more to come in terms of other wilderness areas nationally. "7.2 Climbing The OCCASIONAL placement of a fixed anchor for belay, rappel, or protection purposes does not necessarily impair the future enjoyment of wilderness or violate the Wilderness Act. HOWEVER, CLIMBING PRACTICES WITH THE LEAST NEGATIVE IMPACT ON WILDERNESS RESOURCES AND CHARACTER WILL ALWAYS BE THE PREFERRED CHOICE. THE ESTABLISHMENT OF BOLT-INTENSIVE FACE CLIMBS IS CONSIDERED INCOMPATIBLE WITH WILDERNESS PRESERVATION AND MANAGEMENT DUE TO THE CONCENTRATION OF HUMAN ACTIVITY WHICH THEY SUPPORT, AND THE TYPES AND LEVELS OF IMPACTS ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH ROUTES. Climbing management strategies will address ways to control, and in some cases reduce, the number of fixed anchors to protect the park's wilderness resources or to preserve the "untrammeled," "undeveloped," and "outstanding opportunities for solitude" qualities of the park's wilderness character. FIXED ANCHORS OR FIXED EQUIPMENT SHOULD BE RARE IN WILDERNESS. Authorization will be required for the placement of new fixed anchors or fixed equipment. Authorization may be required for the replacement or removal of existing fixed anchors or fixed equipment. The authorization process to be followed will be established at the park level) and will be based on a consideration of resource issues (including the wilderness resource) and recreation opportunities. Authorization may be issued programmatically within the Wilderness Stewardship Plan or other activity-level plan, or specifically on a case-by-case basis, such as through a permit system. Prior to the completion of the park's Wilderness Stewardship Plan or other activity-level plan, the park superintendent may approve new fixed anchors or fixed equipment on a case-by-case basis. IF UNACCEPTABLE IMPACTS ARE OCCURRING IN WILDERNESS AS A RESULT OF CLIMBING, THE PARK SUPERINTENDENT MAY DEEM IT NECESSARY TO RESTRICT OR PROHIBIT THE PLACEMENT OF FIXED ANCHORS. Proposals for the placement of fixed anchors or fixed equipment for the administrative purpose of facilitating future rescue operations must be evaluated through a MRA. "CLEAN CLIMBING" TECHNIQUES SHOULD BE THE NORM IN WILDERNESS. THIS INVOLVES THE USE OF TEMPORARY EQUIPMENT AND ANCHORS THAT CAN BE PLACED AND REMOVED WITHOUT ALTERING THE ENVIRONMENT (E.G. SLINGS, CAMS, NUTS, CHOCKS, AND STOPPERS)[/size] Practices such as gluing or chipping holds, and damaging or removing vegetation on or at the base of climbing routes, are prohibíted by NPS regulations (36 CFR 2.1). THE USE OF MOTORIZED EQUIPMENT (E.G. POWER DRILLS) IS PROHIBITED BY THE WILDERNESS ACT AND NPS REGULATIONS (36 CFR 2.12). Climbers are encouraged to adopt Leave No Trace principles and practices for all climbing activities, including packing out all trash and human waste." It looks as if the clean-climbing revolution, long dismissed for convenience, is still a going notion, eh? Expect it to be a trend as my buddy, "pope" and others predicted.

Thanks for your support, "billcoe". You finally tipped the delicate balance toward my non-participation in this dubious web-forum. I'll take my crusade to the THE MAN and idealistic, eco-minded youth. You might be a nice guy in real life, but I'll never know. And for the rest of you...I'll join the many that have abandoned cc.com due to its vulgarity and irrelevancy. If you guys represent climbing in 2012, I ain't a part of it. And just to preempt you: what was that I just felt??? Oh, it must be the door hitting me in the *ss as I walked away! Oh my! "Boo-hoo, Raindawg/Dwayner!" yada, yada, yada....enjoy your own sideshow but don't forget to look into the mirror once in a while, it ain't pretty. Sincere aloha to the nice ones. Adios!

Hey, "moderator". You brought me into a "discussion" I wasn't a part of. I'd call that "gratuitous". And I'd call dragging my non-climbing profession into it a "cheap shot". My commentary on bouldering,sport-climbing and gyms is typically general and addresses the concept, not particular individuals. Congratulations! I guess you have now joined the core group of cyber-bullies on cc.com that have driven off so many from this site.

What are you? A 12-year old internet bully in a cubicle? Got a fascinating job I should be envious of? Can't handle climbing ethics that don't match your own?

So, did you find out if he wrote any books, and then made a parody of them, and then mocked him for going on book-signing lecture tours? That would have been some gratuitous fun!! Yee haw!

The jerk store called and they're running out of both of you. Seriously.

Why is this ignorant cliché acceptable even in the "Spray" section of cascadeclimbers? And why am I the first to object??? Really! Thinking like that led to Auschwitz. P.S. There are plenty of "poor" Jews.

What this fellow is pointing out, right at you!, is that what he's got going is just a more blatant form of sport-climbing: permanently-established convenience fixtures that appeal to the masses who prefer presumed safety and a short learning-curve rather than the "leave little trace" ethic practiced by most other outdoor pursuits. Ain't it ironic how so many sport-climbers probably object on environmental or aesthetic grounds to via ferratas....something not all that dissimilar to what they themselves perpetuate? Yah...I'm pretty sure that's the point he's making, but he probably won't subscribe to cc.com because he's unwilling to be ruthlessly attacked for having a minority opinion on this site.

Whiner or otherwise....I ain't your friend.

World-class wit and wisdom from some guy with 16951 posts....

Just because you see a dog here and there at a crag doesn't mean they're accepted. In Leavenworth, I watched as an unleashed dog totally ransacked our packs and food as I was tied in and actively belaying, and helpless to do anything about it. At Vantage, I have more than once seen some pooch narrowly missed by falling rock that would have gravely injured if not killed. Not everybody appreciates your pet (probably named "Chilkoot," "Denali", "Tahoma" or "Gri-Gri".) Leave them in the car with the window cracked for fresh air or better yet, leave them at home. As noted, they also don't seem to deal with wildlife very well whether it's a chipmunk, rabbit or mountain goat. Bad Dog! Go Home!

Both of you........starting the ugliness early, eh? Stick to the topic.

Are you sure that you want to take a swing at this bee's nest??? There are some pretty lengthy "discussions" about this topic on this site! For example, you asked, "when is it appropriate to chop bolts on a route?" My answer: nearly anytime, but you'll find that others disagree.