soulreaper

A solution that I've heard to the "what if it (the mini-traxion) fails?" conundrum is to use both a pro-traxion AND a mini-traxion as a backup on a STATIC fixed line. This minimizes the dynamic properties of a fall (as long as the rope is kept weighed/pulled through; you don't want to fall too far on a loop of static line) and also provides a little more resilience as per the rope sheath. Also, you have a redundant system without having to tie in short. P.S. I read on supertopos that the Pro-Traxion is bulky/crappy for top-rope soloing. Having heard the contrary, and not having tried the systems myself, I would imagine it would take some experimenting to find the right system.

True or untrue, jackass or not, at least he's (probably) out climbing and not in here with us seeing who can split the hair the smallest with all this asinine fluff.

You might catch someone on the classic "Chronic" (5.13b or, more popularly, 5.9 A0)

Speaking only from my limited experience on a few routes up there this past month: -The bolts on Yellow Bird are total relics. If they are indeed superfluous, do they have any value being there, sentimental or otherwise? There is no rap anchor directly above Yellow Bird; however, there is one 20 ft. to the left on the finishing ledge. Both bolts are decent (confirming this would be a good idea, maybe), while the mass of slings could probably be cleaned and replaced (chains? I don't know.) -The bolts on Steven's Pass Motel (2 in the first part) are old buttonheads with the shitty thin brassy SMC hangers; replacing them might be good, although they are placed among rather fragile flakes (handholds) so it probably would require care. I applaud your intentions. That crag is awesome and any replacing/cleanup of old mank is always a good idea.

I haven't tried DWIR or Natural Log Cabin (corner at top), but have seen/heard two facts pertinent to your questions: 1. The gear is small at the bottom and the original runout section is now protected by a bolt (higher on route). The start is still rather runout (and dirty, now). 2. As for the start, I have seen the dirt avoided by traversing in from the Godzilla start. Don't know the difficulty of either, but the Godzilla start is clean.

Amen. The bottom of the route is trivial in both difficulty and, depending on whether you try the crack or the flaky face, excitement when compared to the top. The bottom is a 5.10 move that, since the fall has been taken without dire consequences, is moderately safe and moderately well-protected. Attempting an onsight is a thrilling experience that SHOULD NOT be dumbed down with additional fixed gear.

I'm surprised noone bothered to ask just what "Salad Fingers" is: www.fat-pie.com

I know the move that he's talking about. The exit from the slot is tricky and is protected by a fixed pin w/mank sling. However, protection in the corner seems decent. Tom, congratulations on doing the route in bold style. Please leave it as is for those of us who also wish to pursue that style. Andrew

I don't think that one needs a bolt...you can just as well step over to the Saggitarius anchors if need be, although my only ascent of that V-slot has been on toprope (soon to change).

My dad lost his camera at the Lower Town Wall this past Sunday (8/8). As a last resort after searching today, I was wondering if anyone has seen it. If anyone has, they can send me a personal message. Thanks. P.S. I believe the camera is an older model Canon. It would be in a black carrying case.

For the past two weeks a pile of trash has lain in the campsite across from the Index Town Wall parking lot. After driving by it at least 10 times, I finally took some initiative and hauled away as much of it as my little car could carry. Though this in particular trash was generated by yahoos and not climbers (there is some crossover; I will admit), the campsites are used by both alike. Since some of the sites are apparently on private land, they should be used more carefully. In conclusion: please do as a I (finally) did and get your hands dirty with other peoples' strange and various detritus in both the campsites and in the Index parking lot, not to mention at the walls themselves. A little work from all of us now saves a lot of work from a few of us later.

Interesting how a "discussion" that touches, albeit lightly, on an issue of human compassion/cruelty (i.e., the death toll in Iraq; don't forget: we didn't actually have a reason to invade in the first place) changes so quickly to talk about so-called economic prosperity. Nice attempt to defend the conservative idealogues who are helping to make this country hell for the sane. Also: how can you be climbers and also support ANY political regime with an undeniably harmful agenda? Shouldn't you be helping to mine your local crags and mountains for traces of uranium/granite blocks for your fucking retaining walls? FYI ("For Your Information") an apparent rise in the economy is not necessarily a barometer for positive social change, although that doesn't matter if you buy into the status quo in the first place.

End result: a surprisingly productive discussion. I have certainly taken heed at some of the suggestions here, and realize that my efforts regarding fixed gear should primarily be two-fold: to set good precedents if and when I bolt (a problematic assertion of standard, I know), and to replace fixed mank where feasable. Now, I'll get the fuck off the interweb and go climbing. In other words, thanks (almost) all.

What I called laziness was in no way a reference to your cleaning efforts, which I think are extremely admirable and should be continued by all of us who want to revive some of the harder, more classic routes at the crag. Point taken, as I attempt to reserve judgement a little more...What I was speaking of was what I perceived as indifference as to the state of existing fixed anchors, while new anchors were placed in a spot that certainly would take natural gear (base of Tadpole corner). My other worry is about the "squeezing in" of more (bolted) lines on the wall, as there are plenty more opportunities for this to happen. We've all seen the grid-bolt mania at exits 32 and 38, but I feel like Index needn't follow suit. I suppose pulling the old Model Worker anchor would be a worthy pursuit/compromise between the new anchor, as it would minimize mank. Do you agree that we should also minimize bolting anchors where natural gear is available, however? As far as Tadpole goes, it awaits a lead attempt by me. It's quite hard at the lower crux, but definitely interesting. I'm excited to put energy into retro-cleaning and re-opening some of the old classics, but I don't also want to see a trend of retro-bolting/10 ft."link-ups" begin/continue at the crag. I'm not accusing you of that, but rather wondering what your standards are as pertains to minimizing unsightly fixed anchors where possible. Also, I'm glad that this thread is finally bearing some fruit, even if it seems rather esoteric in the grand scheme of things. -Andrew

Pope-my values have been similar to what you describe and will continue to be. My hope is to somehow preclude any further damage to a place I enjoy and appreciate (Index). I knew that trying to discuss this was/is as frivolous as anything, as is evidenced by the growing level of sarcasm here. Case closed, at least as far as this posting crap is concerned.

That picture is certainly worth all of our words put together... I guess what I mean by "ethical standards" is less about rules or laws and more about respect. As far as making one's "own" rules-if those include creating via ferrata on the Lower Town Wall, then I would certainly disagree. You can make your own "rules" as long as they don't adversely affect the rock. Holding oneself to higher standards is important; a respect for the beauty of the area and the chance to keep it that way was/is my motivation to seek an audience in the electronic bowels of the internet.

This is about the level of intellect I expected going into this but I still believe it's possible to have a productive discourse if we can ignore all the white noise that is inevitably generated. Rather than "complaining" about bolting, this is meant to spur discussion about the accepted ethical situation at Index, specifically whether there is some sort of standard that has the tacit agreement of most people active in producing new routes and upgrading old ones. Someone make this worth all of our time, please.

I'd like to (hopefully) open a discussion (rather than a flame-war) about the recent bolting developments at Index. Recently, persons-who-will-remain-nameless have cleaned/added bolts on certain routes on the lower wall. Also, it seems, some lead bolts on other routes have been replaced by either the same or different people. First off, I'd like to thank those involved for REbolting (I.E., the REPLACEMENT of an existing bolt) and also the cleaning of certain obscure routes. I see these as both ethical and integral to the enjoyment of Index climbing. My dispute over the ethics of said persons is, to name a particular instance, their addition of an anchor at the base of Tadpole, a route above the first full pitch of Model Worker on the lower wall. The scenario is as follows: At the top of Model Worker is a 4 bolt anchor: 2 rusty, extremely old 1/4 inch studs are flanked by newer, yet also rusty bolts/chains. 6 feet to the left is the Tadpole corner, where 2 new anchor bolts were added. In the corner is a PERFECT, parallel yellow alien/yellow TCU sized crack. These bolts are obviously unnecessary. A gear anchor would suffice. At the top of tadpole are two more older bolts with webbing on them that is obviously old and no rap rings/chains. My dilemma is two-fold: Why add useless anchor bolts for mere convenience, and why compound that by failing to upgrade the top anchor, at LEAST with newer webbing and an adequate rappel setup? I don't appreciate the laziness involved nor the frivolity of the bolting. If anyone has any USEFUL input on this question, I'd like to hear it. As I wasn't involved in the formative climbin years at Index, I don't make the rules; however this certainly is a breach of ethics, it seems, unless those retrobolting anchors/routes have gotten explicit permission from the first ascentionists. Darryl Cramer- I would expecially appreciate your opinion on this because of your history of climbing/hard work/sweat/blood/etc. in the Index area; that is, if you read this.