dukiebird

"Experience is the name every one gives to their mistakes." -Oscar Wilde "The fear of death is the most unjustified of all fears, for there's no risk of accident for someone who's dead." -Albert Einstein. My girlfriend's favorite: "You'll never find the edge unless you're willing to go over it." -I dunno "Shit happens" -I dunno that one either Not climbing related, but good news for me: "The ability to quote is a servicable substitute for wit." -I think it was Mark Twain

Hey all, my girlfriend and I are tenatively planning a trip to the San Juan Islands this September, anyone know of any bouldering, climbing, anything over there? It's probably a no-go, but it'd be sweet to do a little climbing while there.

Sounds like some kind of Saxifrage sp. I would reccommend checking out "Plants of the Pacific Northwest Coast: Washington, Oregon, British Columbia, and Alaska", link to amazon.com description here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1551050404/qid=1090347598/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-0885244-5786422?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 This is the guide that I use when I'm doing plant surveys in the field, it's never failed me yet. If you don't want to drop the cheese to buy it, you could go check it out from a library, and there are copies of it in almost every Barnes and Noble or nursury in the area, I think I even saw it in REI once.

This is goin' nowhere quick. There's apparently nothing I can do to convince you that we have many laws that we have to follow, all of which are designed to protect waterways. Again, I do not think that what we do now is enough, in my mind, and wish that we had more stringent laws, but in every case I've seen, Weyer has done what the laws require, and often more than is required. If you see a forestry mispractice, by all means, call the USFS and report us, have them size it up, whatever. If you want it to change, put someone in office that will support tighter harvest laws, I certainly intend to this November. You use our products every day, so you can easily boycott us if you feel the need, but the rest of the logging industry tends to be less concerned with the details of laws than Weyer. If you want proof, go check out some Boise Cascade land up the West Fork of the Teanaway River near Cle Elum and compare it to one of our farms. On that note, you never told me which one of our farms is so nearby that you can keep tabs on it better than us, and AGAIN, if you think we fucked up, CALL US ON IT! Now, the "farm" idea. We do not use fertilizers on our "farms", nor do we harvest the same area every year, or harvest our entire crop at once, or plough, or spray pesticides. You're right, we don't replace the trees we cut with an identical, dappled forest, but we don't plant "pines" everywhere, we plant damn near every tree you could think of, depending on the geography, the soil, and the moisture levels. Trees grow the best in places where they're native, so those are the ones we plant. What you end up with is habitat that, while it is not the ideal and original, still supports the native wildlife of the region, while your average corn field supports a fraction of its original wildlife. I am not slamming the agriculture industry, nor am I putting the logging industry on a silver pedestal, we all use products from both, and need them; I am simply showing that a tree farm leaves viable habitat while we grow our "crop", and is a lot more sustainable than people like to think. Nevertheless, there are smarter ways to run both, and both are improving from the monstrocities of the past, but have a long ways to go. You're damn right, I think that anyone that thinks that the logging industry "gets a pass" on regulations is ignorant, and naive to boot, I don't know how many times I've drilled this point: WE HAVE LAWS FOR LAND AND FORESTRY USE THAT WE ALL ARE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR!!!!! My family and many of our family's friends wrok for Weyer, so yes, I know a good deal about the loggin industry, not from my internship alone, but from a lifetime of work-related discussions, investigations, reports, and the like. If you think I'm some wet-behind-the-ears intern, go check out the local state and federal LAWS about forestry and land use, see what you find, I assure you, we are held to ALL of them. And no, numbnuts, all timberland is NOT prior converted wetland, and neither is farming. You must be referring to the fact that the very fertile soils that some farms use occur in floodplains, and are filled and converted to farms. You may be in one such area, so maybe you just overlooked the fact that most commercial forestry land is in the highlands, where floods occur less and tree populations are less likely to drown or get knocked out by debris torrents. Your experience must have come from a lowland area, but if we logged to the waterline, then it was a mistake. Unless you're referring to a seasonal freshet that doesn't exist 10 months out of the year, just which water body specifically did we log to the waterline of? Looking back, I can see that ONCE AGAIN, there is apparently nothing I can say to convince you that we follow laws like everyone else, so go check it out your goddamn self. I'm not gonna chase this around in circles any more, or waste my time with another post on this thread. RobBob, if you're so convinced this is a cut-and-dry matter, and you are as right as you think you are, then good for you. I won't try to explain myself or my posts to someone who is doing everything they can to not listen anymore. See ya 'round.

BTW, nice roadbike, cracked.

Ashw, no trash talkin intended. The above post was for my new bestest buddy RobBob, who's been doggin my ass like an inmate on parole. Galbraith's a bitch, but it's good to know I got a fellow rider out there in rock land...

I meant on your current Weyerhaeuser fixation, you seemed cleary conservative at the beginning of the post, but you almost seem to be arguing against logging, a more liberal view, so now it seems like you're just an asshole out to stir shit up. I would have thought that my willingness to compromise and work WITH people like Weyer instead of blindly battling against them would have shown that there are reasonable, realistic environmentalists that don't expect the impossible, so long as there are similarly reasonable people on the other side (I'd say YOUR side, but I don't really know if you're on one... ). If by relaxed, conservative environmentalists, you mean people that care, but are too lazy to really stand up for anything, then I think you're looking for quite a few people. If you think that my descision to defend my views is over-the-top and extreme, I'd say you need a re-calibration. How 'bout this: get over yourself, I'll put my foot in my mouth and do the same. If you want to continue this banter, we sure can, but I'll be damned if I'll waste another iota of concern on an unreasonable nit-picker without a cause that seems to think that he's got it all figured out 'cause he's got a couple of years on me.

WTF is your problem?!? No ski lifts on Galbraith, I climb the Mtn. like the man you'll never be.

If someone fucked up on our end I'd love to know about it, and I don't know why you think that I am soppy-eyed in love with Weyerhaeuser. Again, now pay attention and listen this time... I am saying that we CANNOT just do any damn thing we want, and must obey LAWS on land use. I also never claimed that fresh cuts and buffers are happy, Bambi-style wildlife filled havens, but its a start. Reproach all you want, just don't put words in my mouth, like you seem to get your jollies doing to me. I am trying to offer a fair and balanced view overall, and it is still true that, although it may not be the absolute best habitat ever, tree farms still provide habitat and pollute less than most other commercial land use, perhaps any. Just as a point of curiosity, do you have an opinion? Or would you rather just continue trying to disprove me?

True, but like I said, I don't think I'm all that extreme. Damn, you guys are gonna be real thorns in my ass from now on, huh?

Rabid? But I just got my shots!

Nice try... No, I know it causes erosion on a small scale, I'd take you to the places I mountain bike, established, dual-use trails on land actively managed as timber farming (Galbraith Mtn. in Bellingham, g'head, look it up.). If we're gonna get into this ball o'wax, we'd better start a new thread i.e. the environmental impacts of oh, I dunno, say climbing...

Ummm...

sure thing, gramps, but $1K's a little rich for my blood, I wouldn't be working if I didn't need money, make it a Benjamin and you're on. Be careful though, wouldn't want you to break a hip. Unless you have some sort of experience in forestry, I'd say you calling me pompous is a "kettle calling the pot black" situation. I'd love to see the line in which I excuse Weyerhaeuser from following environmental laws. I'd say you should take a nap, and get over your Napolean complex. BTW which one of our tree farms are you a "neighbor" to, next time I'm up there doing grunt labor for research I could swing by...

Yup, you're on your way cracked. Pretty soon, you'll be walking around with a glazed look on your face handing out leaflets for Greenpeace, wearing nothing but a poncho and a gentle smile (now that's what I call a Friday night!!) If you ever feel the need to man up and go off of smooth, paved roads, let me know. I'll take you down some mtn trails that'll make you want to curl up in a corner and cry

Only if you come over and eat my ass. I hate wiping

Cracked, you sound like a real nice guy, can I buy you a drink sometime? Greg, I think making veganism a law would cause anarchy, good call. Creating laws about diet is pretty extreme, which is not what I consider myself.

Greg, as much as you like to think you own the land forever, you don't. Like I said, after you're dead, you're not gonna own it anymore, and whoever does is gonna have to deal with whatever you did with it. RoboBob, pull your condescending geriatric head out of your ass and re-read my post. Nowhere in it did I give the logging industry, or even my company a "pass on environmental issues", nor did I say that I have control over, or even know by heart the laws that we obey, but I absolutly would bet my life on the fact that I know a LOT more about the workings and policies than you do, even if you've "been a neighbor" for a long time. I know what logging companies have been responsible for in the past and it appals me, and I don't personally think that the laws we follow now are enough, but the fact is that Weyerhaueser bends over backwards to find ways to make logging more sustainable, even if you don't see it. The point I THOUGHT I was making was that you shouldn't think that we get away with anything, we follow rules like everyone else. Next time, you should clean off your spectacles and read a bit more carefully, especially the last line.

Geez, I don't think I've ever written that much in one sitting. You guys must have really pissed me off...

Oh, its fuckin' on now... First of all, I would like to clarify my position. I am very much an environmentalist, and have EXTREME concern for the future of a planet and ecosystem that is much older, and in my mind, important than one arrogant species of naked monkey that has managed to create more extinction, more habitat destruction, and more widespread alteration to the planet that we live on than any species or natural disaster that has EVER EXISTED, all in a fraction of a blink of an eye, as time goes. I know that some of you rockheads are thinking about bringing up the whole "what about that big comet that killed the dinosaurs?" argument, don't even waste your time writing it. http://www.well.com/user/davidu/extinction.html I know that just because scientists believe it to be true doesn't make it 100% fact, but if anyone really wants me to, I can keep coming up with sources, articles, and scientific peer reviewed studies that all point to the same thing. The attitude of "I can do whatever the hell I want with my land" is extremely short sighted and selfish. If you have kids, well hell, you made them, they're yours, right? So you should be able to do whatever the hell you want with them too, right? Owning land carries responsibility, and the responsibility to your community to consider the effects of what you want to do with your land are similar to your obligations to society regarding what you want to do to your child. In both cases, you DO NOT OWN EITHER! You are paying to supervise what is done with them right now, but after you're worm food, the effects of your descisions will be felt, by the community that has to deal with the flooding caused by the development of a wetland on your property, or by the people that are hurt by your angry child that you abused (if you wanted to, of course. He is yours...). There are laws telling you what you can't do to a child, so you're goddamn right, you will be told what you can't do with your land. It's everyones problem, as is every other environmental issue. You can drive your Hummer to Burger King all you want, but when you get cancer from air pollution, and your dream home is destroyed by a storm strengthened by global warming (its happening NOW, http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0008C7B2-E060-1C73-9B81809EC588EF21 ) you'll be calling for regulations to stop these things from happening. The fact that some of you seem to think that it is acceptable to do nothing is insane to me, as is every other American that does the same, most notably the lunatics running our country right now. The fact that you would go off so savegely on someone, and indeed anyone, that is working hard to save the world FOR YOU makes you a complete ingrate. Blue Tuberosa is not the governement telling you what to do with your life, she/he is buying land to conserve it and help lock up carbon to combat global warming. Others of my cause are fighting so that YOU don't die at the age of 40, so that YOUR KIDS won't grow up in a world where Tigers and Whales are as real and live as dinosaurs and wooly mammoths, so that YOU AND ALL THE REST OF YOU SHORT-SIGHTED NUMBNUTS can have air to breathe, water to drink, and food to eat that doesn't contain chemicals that were never meant to be ingested. The claim that the loggin industry gets away with murder is bullshit, you are flat out wrong, and ignorant for not doing more research. I work as an environmental forestry intern for Weyerhaeuser, and I have been all over the field to make sure that my company is obeying and exceeding laws, yes laws, children, that are set down to protect habitat in and anywhere downstream of one of our tree FARMS, emphasis on FARMS. We own land, and certainly cannot do whatever we want with it, but to conduct a farming operation (which, by the way, produces less pollution, and provides infinitely more wildlife habitat than a similarly sized farm), we need to make sure that we protect sensitive areas, large rivers are left with buffers of forest that are upwards of 50 meters, and even high mountain trickles are given at least 20. Clearcuts are replanted within a month of them being cut to control erosion, often with multi-species stands. Everyone hates my company, but has tons of sympathy for farmers, who alter ecosytems much more drastically and permanently than us. And what, you will undoubtedly want to ask, am I doing, apart from talking about it, personally, what sacrifices to I make, now that I've asked others to make sacrifices? I 1) am a vegertarian, working towards vegan 2) do not own a car, but walk, bike, or use public transportation to get around 3) donate a good potion of MY hard-earned money to the Nature Conservancy and other orgs to support their work. If you think any of these are easy, you should try them for a month, or even a week. Lastly, extremism helps noone. Willingness to compromise is the only thing that will make environmentalism work, and writing all environmentalists off as silly granola-munching hippies is as bad as expecting everyone to go vegan and stop building, farming, etc. I know that not all conservatives are ignorant, selfish rednecks permanantly stuck in denial, but it would help to convince me if those carachteristics didn't always surface when these topics come up. Anyone who wants to say something in response had damn well better think, or better yet research, before they try. Bring it on...

Uh huh... I'm inexperienced, not fucking stupid. If that rock is in the same Renton that I have lived in my entire life, then purple unicorns wearing hot pants can jump out of my ass, shake my hand and make me the king of Sweden. What up Distel?!?! How ya doin, man. Dee says Hi.

Which school? If there are any good climbs near Renton, I'd love to hear about them, too. Thanks for the response, willstrickland, thats what I was looking for.

Jesus, I sense a lot of frustration at beginners and less-than-pro climbers here. As a completely unofficial and unauthorized ambassador for newbies everywhere, I gotta say that the thread here is a little intimidating. I personally have never climbed anything that required a harness or belayer, and after this thread, it doesn't sound too appealing, unless I'm climbing where there is absolutely nobody else. I would like to ask all the more experienced climbers to be patient with us wet-behind-the ears newbies. I totally agree with the whole annoyance with assholes and inconsiderate idjets, but if we do something that seems that way, we probably just don't know any better. More experienced climbers have the power to help show us new folks "the light" and give us good climbing manners, as Alpinfox said, by politely and patiently making requests to clean our gear and offering advice. That, or you pro climbers can totally turn new people off of climbing forever by impatiently waiting to warm up on some 5.8 route or a v3 while we are trying to acheive something that is, to us at least, a huge milestone and great accomplishment. Nothing sucks the joy and fun out of conquering a new problem quite like some pompous rock jock getting in a tizzy because you took too long, or grumbling about damned newbies under their breath as you pass (both have happened to me more often than you would think in the gym where I boulder). I understand that the old hands get frustrated at people trying to climb out of their league, but if we never try to do something that we can't yet, how do we know where our limit is? We may not know a fraction as much as you, and may not be able to climb v8 like you, but we deserve a chance to try. Anywho, I'll hop off of my soapbox. Thanks to all those climbers that remember what its like to be an inexperienced climber being bullied away from what they really want to climb by those elitists that clearly think they deserve the rock more. Your patience with my kind is greatly appreciated. end of preaching...

this ain't working. its like those damn magic eye things, where I'm looking for a unicorn or something and end up seeing a bunch of squiggly dots and stuff. I don't think its possible to cross my eyes enough to make it line up, trying to make it work almost gave me an eyeball hernia.

Well, that didn't work. How about any good workout routine that anyone has, for improving crimp strength, plyometrics, better contact strength, or better endurance and stamina for bigger climbs. C'mon, people, I know someone out there has come some sort of opinion on this...