eldiente

I'm not for or against anything. I'm just saying folks need to recognize that this an unusual route, aid ladders aren't very common and to my knowledge this style of aid climbing fell out of popularity a long time ago. -Nate

I don't see the facts on the ground supporting your statement. Sorry to hammer on this, but all of the new routes going up at Smith or anywhere for that matter use bolts and pins for protection, not for steeping on. I challenge you to give me a list of modern routes going up at crags that use aid ladders to ascend blank rock. I like to think I'm good a good climber dork when it comes to cragging beta and I can't think of anywhere where new routes are going up using bolts for aid climbing. I like climbing trivia so if someone can list of some modern bolted aid routes, I'd like to hear it. This style of route would be out of ordinary at any crag. I would bet that 1,000s of new routes go up every year, how many of them have bolt ladders on them? Not many, or none(?) Not saying it is bad or good, but a quick glance through a guidebook would confirm this. Bottom line, cutting edge FA done in a style that most folks don't understand. Maybe a new trend is back? I'm going to step it up next year and drill a few pockets to create a moderate free route to the summit, I'm awful at aid so I need a few pockets. -Nate

As usual Joe is being made out to be the bad guy here, he isn't the most diplomatic (hey he is an engineer, he isn't supposed to have people skills) but he does have valid points that shouldn't be ignored. First, you guys (FA party/er mob) really really need to acknowledge that this sort of route is controversial and not act surprised when it pisses a few people off. It doesn't matter where you are at, bolt ladders are controversial, Index, Squamish, J-tree, Owens etc etc any type of new bolt ladder going in at any major crag is going to ruffle feathers. You should own up to it, a simple "Hey everyone we understand that that this style of route is considered taboo by just about everyone that has ever tied in. However we think in this case it was OK for XYZ reasons." That would satisfy me. A few things come to mind... 1.) Example, is this type of route normal anywhere? I'm digging hard into my collection of guide books and I'm just not seeing any kind of historical precedence for this type of route. I don't keep tabs on the aid climbing world, but have there been any new aid routes going up at crags that use bolt ladders? Yes monkey face comes to mind, however just about everyone agrees that the West Face bolt ladder was a bad idea and ugly as hell. (I'm going to get flamed for the bolted headwall on the Nose-El Cap and the bolt ladder on the Grand Wall, but I think a good argument can be made that those ladders provide links between the best rock on Earth) Seriously though, give me some modern examples of bolt ladders being installed at crags, where else is this going on? 2.) Aid climbers need something to do when it rains. Head over to Trout Creek some weekend, 100+ perfect cracks to climb, no hammer or bolts needed. I would bet that almost all of these cracks have never been aided so you'd be getting the first aid ascent. You think I'm kidding but honestly TC or the Lower Gorge at Smith would great places to aid. No kidding, the locals at Trout are way nicer than Beacon and everyone would be stoked as you could hang top ropes on all the hard stuff. Serious offer, I leave Saturday AM. 3.) Aid climbers need something to practice on. Worst reason ever to put up any route. Sort of reminds me of those jokers who bolted on on holds to the Cock boulder in Squmaish. Actually they use the same argument, we need somewhere to go and train when it rains and nobody will care because this is some small boulder. blah blah. Training? I highly recommend the hang board. I don't have a problem with bolts at Beacon, however access out there always seems sketchy and keeping a low profile is important. This route is hardly low profile, if I just read that TR correctly, someone fixed ropes out there for a multi-day ascent? Leaving fixed kit right in front of the parking lot hardly counts as low profile. Anyway, I know you guys (FA party) mean well but please don't dismiss people that have concerns about your route, even if Joe is cranky others share his feelings. -Nate

I just saw this thread but don't have the time to read all 20 pages, forgive me if I miss something. Ivan is a good guy and and contributes more to this site than most, note how he has 70+ TRs to his credit while most people on this site never post any useful beta. Clearly Ivan's stoked on climbing and gets out when most of us just stay in and watch TV. However all this hammering and drilling going on up at Beacon is whacy, if I just scanned these posts I'd think we are talking about a home improvement project, drills, ladders, bolts,pins, hammers etc. (Poor Ivan, he builds a new route and now he's getting flamed online, sorry dude) As best I can tell form the post/topo fixed gear was placed to help span blank sections of rock. If there isn't any features for clean aid why not 1.) find a variation around the blank rock 2.) free climb it or 3.) bail, clearly there isn't a line there if you need that many bolts to link up blank sections of rock. I saw some post about free climbing this route, has someone fully explored that option? Is there any possibility of someone free climbing around these bolt ladders? Seems like the first thing one would try to do is to come through on TR and try to free it before establishing an aid ladder. Vasty different styles, but it reminds me of the Pioneer Route at Smith, sure it allows a moderate passage over blank rock, but it is kind lame given that there is clean aid and free routes to the same summit. And on a practical level, Ivan how did you get permission from the Park to place that much hardware? I though there was some sort of permit required to drill there(?) Can someone please educate me? If the park is cool with 50+ bolts going in on one route, is the park going to be OK if I rap bolt some new routes on the South Side? I think I'd get lynched. *laughs* -Nate *update Ignore much of the stuff above, I got the story, thanks Bill. On a side note, whose going to give me a belay so I can free this?

I'll second (er third) what Dane said. You've got to be careful what you say when you're on the clock even if it is just CC.com. -Nate

This is complete spam, mods can this thread be killed and/or block this user?

I'm not great with the Patagonia climbing history, but it would seem that most of the routes down there are put up by visiting climbers so the local ethics are decided by tourists. I'd be curious what the residents of El Chalten have to say, is there an active community of climbers living there year round that has an opinion one way or the other? I ask because it seems like all this name calling is being done by people who don't live there and import whatever ethic they are used to and makes sense to them. Even Garibotti lives in Colorado. We look at historical precedence when thinking about ethics, on this wall historical precedence is a drill and a lot of bolts. So as awful as it sounds, Lama's style is not out of line for what is normal for that particular wall and is very common for big wall free climbing, even it offends just about everyone. (Side note, sort a waste of time. Seems like a really dumb place to establish a hard free climb, lots of hassle and everyone hates you and you get to set around in poor weather etc) Here's a thought. Suppose Lama "creates" a free route up this wall and needs say 50 bolts to do it. With a free route in place the Compressor route gets chopped. We went from 400+bolts to 50, would this be an improvement or still a tragedy? I don't think Lama will do it for a variety of reasons, (weather, too lazy etc) but if he establishes a free route and removes the bolt ladders, I'd say he has improved the condition of this wall and left it better than he found it. Lama clearly isn't making any friends with this nonsense, (although maybe Red Bull is making him rich) but that last bit in Colin's blog post about gym climbers was a little harsh. I hope he was trying to be funny. Many climbers that come from the gym go on to do great things. (Alex Honnald comes to mind)

I'm also a little bit tired of climbing companies and their sponsored athletes rattling on and on about how clean and pure they are. I'm glad there is a push to have less of an impact in the mountains, that's good but most of this is just marketing BS to make us fill better about buying their gear. The endless TRs that get spammed into my inbox read something like this. " We climbed light and fast in pure alpine style leaving no bolts behind." Nice, proud, but if they are going to spray about their environmental impact they ought to do it accurately. It would read. Our team burned 400 gallons of jet fuel to get here, we used gear that was made in China in a factory that doesn't meet Western environmental standards. Our gear is so light that it fell apart after one trip and had to be retired. Our ropes got cut on the descent and we carried them out and then tossed them in the trash." There's a guy you see around Portland who rides his bike to crag, not sure what his story is, maybe he can't afford a car. Anyway, this guy should be on the pages of a Patagonia catalog and in the mags, he is practicing a very low impact form of climbing and is way more "clean" than anyone flying down to Patagonia climbing in alpine style. Anyway..... Football game is starting now... brb

I'm paranoid so I use a small locker on the rig. As for the knot, the above picture was stole from some random website, this isn't my picture. The only thing I do differently is I use a overhand knot to join the pull line and the lead rope together, the tag line is not supposed to be load bearing so I use whatever knot is small and easy to tie for the tag line. My feeling is that there is no conceivable way for a locker to fit through a rap ring, safe enough.

See below pic of pull-line system in use, I use this method with a 6mm cord. Note the biner is REALLY important, people have died by using just a knot and no biner. This method isn't prefect as discussed, but I've been happy with it and only had a few stuck ropes that required some extra pulling. [img:center]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CVi31V8pFQE/S-nNArY-xCI/AAAAAAAAAMI/p1-uqDgNHHQ/s1600/448px-Autoblock_lockeds.JPG[/img]

IMO- In most cases I'd skip the probe and just go right to digging. I tested this years ago with a chunk of plywood, I could always locate and unbury the wood faster with a shovel and no probing. The one exception to this would be huge slides, if the victim is burred 15 feet deep it might be quicker to probe before digging, although if the slide is that big the poor sap is probably a goner. -Nate

Oh man I can't believe I got sucked into this.*laughs* What does large mean? I was thinking of revenue and profit, not market cap. By a measure of revenue, Apple is larger than Microsoft, Dell or Google. Although market cap can be a bunch of crap, (remember the dot.com bubble days) Apple has extremely conservative fiscal policy to back-up the high share prices. 50 billion in cash, and no debit. Apple could buy Dell tomorrow and never even notice. *sighs, dude I feel like I'm sticking up for the evil empire here, blah* Anyway, we can agree that Apple is f**ing huge and shows no signs of slowing down. Heres another fun fact Walmart has 2 million employes and makes about 14 billion a year in profit. Apple has 50,000 people on payroll and also makes about 14 billion a year. If making a buck off your employee is the goal of all this, Apple is doing a great job.

No way, when we run out of oil, we can run our cars on iPhones. Exxon has a finite life, whereas Apple can keep making up BS forever. ( I do agree on the bubble though, when should I cash out?)

I love math! (really I do) Depends on what you mean by "large" but let's look at some of the other big players in the computer world and what they did during 2010. If we are only looking at value, Apple is currently third largest company on Earth, no not a mistype. Exxon oil and China Petro occupy the number 1 and 2 spots. Apple. 65 billion revenue, 300 billion market cap. Dell. 53 billion revenue 27 billion market cap.*Ouch* Microsoft. 63 billion revenue, 238 billion market cap. Intel. 35 billion revenue, 116 billion market cap.

Hot off the press, the PC as we know it (Intel/MS) is dead. http://www.asymco.com/2011/01/06/this-is-the-most-exciting-ces-ever/ And back to Apple. Here's something to ponder. The economy sucks, people are driving old cars, shopping in bulk, canceling vacations, getting a roommate, climbing on old ropes etc. However during all this nonsense, people are choosing to buy "over-priced" Apple hardware instead of a PC. Think about it, Apple has tons of competition, charges a premium price, and in a down economy has become America's largest computer company. You can't blame Apple's success on a few fan boys or some type of monopoly, Apple is building a mint the old fashioned way, by making a better product. Given the current economic environment this is nothing short of a miracle, this would be the equivalent of Porsche overtaking Toyota in the car industry. (But hey JH, the Toyota and the Porsche both have the same engine (er CPU) that's a hell of tax to pay on the Porsche, they both will get you to work at the same time) Oh and onto the App store. Sort of big brotherish for sure. The future with Apple is making the device like a toaster; easy to use, never crashes. You give up some freedom going this route, but the experience for the end user is better. Will this piss off some folks, yep developers and people that like to run the command line are going to be hating it. The other 99% of the world is going to love it though, that's what Apple is betting on. If people don't like it, no worries at all, there are many other choices. Dell isn't going out of business just yet, although their stock price might make you think they are.

Oh no I've been sucked in! Below we have a picture of two very nice laptops, I'd be happy with either one. The on the right is an Apple MacBook Pro, and on the left an HP Envy. Both get high marks from the pundits. Both have almost identical specs. The big difference is price, the one on left costs $1,600 whereas the Mac on the right costs $1,300. That's a bit of a heavy HP tax. :-) Ok bad example, but here's a good example from a large HMO here in Portland. These folks are savagely cheap, there is a fellow in procurement whose only job it is to buy the cheapest computers he can find, he gets a pay raise if the TCO (total cost of ownership) per machine goes down. He'd buy a toaster if it would run Office. Anyway, they are in the process of switching the entire company to Mac for the simple reason, they cost less money. But hey I'm glad Steve is getting rich, I own Apple stock. $400 in 2011 I tell you! [img:center]http://cache-02.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2009/09/DSC_0263mac.JPG[/img]

I'll second what Rob said about shooting guns, fun! Just about anyone can have a good time shooting. However shooting for self defense has zero to do with shooting for fun. Most people shoot for fun but think they can use that same "toy" for shooting a person. Nope. Most folks (myself included) should not even think of a handgun as a self defense tool. It is has been said before here but is really important to think about; professionals with years of training still have problems with handguns and often shoot the wrong person or are shot themselves. If a trained professional can't get it right, you and I have no hope. I wouldn't try to free solo a 5.14 pitch? Why, because I'm not qualified to do so and would get myself killed. That said, I find the 1911 to be a "fun" handgun to shoot at the range. If the world is really coming to an end and you feel like you've got to have a weapon to defend your ranch, a shotgun seems like a better tool.

I can't say I'm friends with either Tim or Ian, but every time I bump into them at Smith, they strike me as being classy guys. You guys handled this situation well, thanks for the video, way funny. -Nate

At this point this fund raising activity is becoming SPAM on CC.com.

Hey Kevin, it is a tad respectful the families of the deceased to suggest that their loved ones on Flight #77 are not dead and instead part of an elaborate hoax. I guess if this is the mind set, we can safely say the Earth quake in Haiti was a hoax, the Tsunami in the Indian Ocean and the Civil war ware all made up because you didn't get to witness them with your own eyes. When it comes to this sort of nonsense, people forget that the government is made of people just like you and me, people who waste time at work reading BS web forums and want to sneak out of work early on Friday. You think some slack government employee is going work overtime to blow-up buildings? -Nate

I'll fess up to abusing the hell out the REI refund policy. I often feel bad and think I'm going to hell for it. -Natre

I think climbing TC would be grim right now, maybe some of the OWs would go but I think your hands would go so numb on the thin cracks that you'd have a hard time pulling the triggers on your cams. -Nate

Huh Alex, I think you may have mistyped this. Sport wankers the world over will call any rout they lead without falling a red point, usually this is done with draws hanging in place. Pink pointing usually refers to a trad climb with the natural gear pre-placed, no bolts! To add a further layer of confusion, people will sometimes say "trad red point" which usually means placing natural gear on lead with no falls.

Bishop? Why would you ever want to go there? I was there a few weeks ago and it was awful. [img:center]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1133.snc4/149561_10150098775061013_605271012_7819908_6680499_n.jpg[/img]

5mm or 6mm seems to be a good size for the pull line. In a pinch you can still rap on 5mm or 6mm, it sucks but I've done it several times. Also, the skinny pull lines can be a real whore to keep tangle free, anything smaller than 5mm and I think you'd be spending a lot of time sorting out ropes. Here's one that hasn't been mentioned yet for moderate terrain. Take an 8mm rope and fold it in half and simul on it. When you need to do a full belayed pitch, unfold the rope and use it like a normal lead line. For the raps, tie the 8mm to your tag line. Super light! Just don't fall very often, I feel OK leading on a single 8mm line but I'd retire it after a whipper. -Nate