MervGriffin

I doubt if "hundreds" of climbers have been up there, but whatever....a bunch of folks climbing it and liking it doesn't make it any less bogus or illegal. "Shut up" doesn't enhance your argument. There might be. You don't know this. If they don't have it chopped (perhaps ultimately by its "creators"?), then there are actually quite a number of folks who would support its removal. If you climb this "route", be safe, but also do so with the understanding that it is a questionable and controversial route, and by climbing it, you are implicitly endorsing its legitimacy.

No. I didn't get that impression at all. No, I haven't thought much of your "offer", because I dismissed it as one of the lamest things I've ever read on this web-site. Is that so? Haven't been on it this year....wasn't on it last year....or was it the year before? I don't really remember, but I do love that route so maybe I'll blast up there later this Fall. Maybe you can watch and learn? I'll teach you how to avoid or skip bolts. Or are you one of these people who saw an apparition of me up there soloing everytime you walked under the wall during the early '90's?

Keep your eyes off the trail and the "route" isn't too hard to miss. Sure...if you consider a line of closely-spaced rap-bolts festooned with abandoned quick-draws in the woods impressive. Did you remove the litter? Has it ever been "climbed"? What about sieging it into submission? Glad you had a nice trip, Dr. Chuck. Some may scoff at The Tooth but it's a lot of fun and a nice workout. Sorry you had to experience the eye-sore on the way up to the peak.

Lots of interesting ideas and personalities involved in all of this! Thanks, The 'bone, for bringing up this topic! Here are a few quotes that caught my interest along with some commentary. I care. So, can I leave all my garbage there because few will likely see it? I care. Warren did some giant climbs, but he ain't the king. That naughty little route on Garfield has sure attracted quite a bit of action! That's the STUPIDEST cliché I've heard since "The best climber is the one having the most fun!" For more similar shallow "inspirational" babblings, read the article on the Dihedral Wall in one of the latest climbing rags. Tommy-baby...stick to climbing them hard-cracks, quit reading those Nike ads and get yourself a home-study philosophy course for your rare day-off. And these universally acknowledged right reasons are???? Sad, Peter. Very sad. Why argue against power drills??? Haven't you noticed the oppositon among some climbers against such drills and against other forms of bolting??? If there are efforts to change the law to allow power drilling, than I hope there is first a HUGE debate as to the legitimacy of such and similar activities. And I'd like the Fed's to hear BOTH sides of the argument! - Merv

Catbirdseat? He not turning in his Rainier blue-bags?

Well said. You've got to believe that anybody (except possibly a Freshman at a third-rate college) attempting to fake these docs would make the minimal effort to match technology with the doc's creation date. Read the news today? MY BAD!!!!!

His Lou-ness IS BIG!!!! No exaggeration necessary! Check it out!!!

I didn't know that but I suspected it, so thanks for the clarification. Yes, Mr. 'bone, I got a point to make. It has to do with this whole thing about where to draw the line. It's like stealing a cookie from a large jar when no one is looking: it's still stealing. Some people might claim outrage if the activity is within the realm of an official, government-declared wilderness region, but at the same time, think it's O.K. if it's a few feet over the border or it's on something that is less cool than Prussik or Dragontail. I think the whole activity needs to be questioned. As "pope" once satirically noted, some alpine bolters would strongly object to snowmobiles riding up mountain valleys, but at least when the snowmobiles are gone, their noise and tracks disappear.

Hey Potty-Mouth. Do you work for RMI? Do you speak to the clients that way? Do you also regularly make disparaging comments about "independent climbers" as many RMI guides do?

I am asking the question of the fellow quoted above, who seems to have some instinct to be irate, but at the same time might make exceptions for his own activities near Snoqualmie Pass. So again, "how were those bolts at Alpental placed? And I don't really care if it's technically just outside of a designated wilderness boundary...it's still two miles from a road." Also, what The 'bone said.

I thought we were only talking about issue 1 here? Maybe I am wrong but hand-drilling bolts in the wilderness seems almost a non-issue, same as leaving a nut or a cam on a route. I mean, "it happens" but is hardly a threat to access? How were those bolts at Alpental placed? And I don't really care if it's technically just outside of a designated wilderness boundary...it's still two miles from a road.

Erden: Watch the film "Kon-Tiki" and you'll see Thor Heyerdahl and his raft-mates catching sharks by hand. A few years ago, Thor himself gave me an impromptu demonstration (albeit without a shark present)and insisted it was a good time and that one should stay away from the "biting end" of the flailing shark. It seems to me that it involved grabbing them by the tail and flinging them on deck. There are, of course, tastier fish to eat, but shark meat ain't too bad.

When your car slows down, and when that joint is nothing more than a pile of residual ashes and a fleeting buzz, it's done with. With drilling, by hand or by machine, you've left a permanent mark that others will continue to encounter in perpetuity unless extraordinary means are taken to restore the damage.

I see that in The 'Bone's poll that there is the option of "No - I would not rat on any climber". Everybody seems to be a climber today and no, "it ain't all good" nor are climbers "all good". Just because somebody shares a weird sport with me doesn't mean I have an obligation or some sort of special bond to protect their miserable butts when they're behaving badly. And good chance today, too, that if your gear gets ripped off, it's another "climber". The "brotherhood of the rope" is a vague memory. P.S. Check out the bolt-restrictions in Joshua Tree for a glimpse of the future. J-Tree Bolting

A LITTLE HISTORY: The "Alpine Buddy" concept was initiated by "Dwayner" and "pope" a couple/three years ago to give a nice and supportive high-five to various denizens in the climbing neighborhood. One early recipient was nominated for being "effortless cool". SPEAKING OF BANNINGS.... Ironically, it seems that our own "cool buddy" was instrumental in having "Dwayner" himself banned (or at least recommended that he be put on temporary time-out ) for his "manipulative" and "disruptive" behavior in which "every post" became a discussion about bolts and/or ethics. LOOKING BACK... In retrospect, we made a poor decision with this whole "Alpine Buddy" thing. We dropped the concept in short order anyway because as with most well-intentioned things around here, it quickly devolved into a downward spray-spiral.

Another excerpt from the article cited by The'bone: "The climber met with the Wilderness Manager on Aug. 27 and worked out essentially a plea arrangement that included paying a $500 fine and agreeing to work with other members of the local climbing community to help stop the use of motorized drills on routes in Wilderness Areas, said Cimino. The agreement allowed the climber to avoid a court appearance and included no jail time. Also, the climber agreed to write an article or letter to the local media to more fully explain the prohibition against motorized drills in the wilderness. In return, for the climber's "very cooperative" attitude and an agreement to "be proactive" and help prevent others from making the same mistake, the Forest Service agreed not to release the climber's name to the media, Cimino said." I hope a copy of his letter or article is published RIGHT HERE.

Driving up to Rain-Dawg on Saturday, I stopped by the Mountainfest thing they had going on in Ashford. Gear sale, food and beer, meet and greet some Everest dudes if that's your thing, fake ice-climbing wall for the kiddies...loads of fun, but then I felt an awesome presence overwhelm me. As a cold yet somehow welcoming shudder passed through me body, I turned around to see not 30 feet away, His Lou-ness, in all his alpine splendor. Yuckin' it up, shakin' hands and signin' autographs...as I turned to run to my car where I could roll up the windows and squeel like a teenaged Beatles fan, I thought I was seeing double...no, I wasn't seeing double...nearby was Big Lou's brother, Jim (FACME), who looks just like him, but hasn't climbed Rainier as many times. Too nervous and shy to approach the Dopellgangerin, I ran off and drove up The Mountain, the aura of Lou extending well into the Park boundaries. I recall that a few years ago, encounters with Big Lou inspired a good bit of poetry, as one might expect. Here's a happy sample: J. Kassidy wrote: "Big Lou leaves big tracks, from skis and God knows what else. What are his options?" Peter Puget displayed his well-hidden artistic side: "My view of the Gods An ideal for my living I am cleansed by Lou" Pope offered this for us to ponder: "Big Lou be big boy, a big hero big boy Lou: he's proportional." jblakely's contribution: "trouser volcano village girl climb high Mt. Lou run villagers run!" And Dwayner shared the love with this: "Lou... Half man/half sasquatch denizen of Tacoma's great white monster. Human burro of the overloaded Jan-Sport. Sir Lou....half glacier/half moraine, master of Rainier's glassy tormented slopes, yet awed, nay, humbled by its grandeur... pressure-breathing giant of the Ingraham, you had me at "rest-step". A thousand blonde monotone guides fail in imitation. Lou.....you complete me." His Lou-ness.

"Wasn't it Antonie van Leeuwenhoek who once said, "In the year of 1657 I discovered very small living creatures in rain water"? Speaking of post-modern neo-Baroque semiotics, would you mind if I just have a small taste of that yummy brie? Just a smidgen!" "A-3+ this, ya big-wall poseurs!" You wanna know about Rain-Dawg? You can't handle Rain-Dawg!

A serious observation about a situation in the mountains (bolted routes at Alpental) turned to hell pretty fast courtesy of at least three moderators, with the topic deteriorating from the Alpine Lakes Forum, the Climbers Board, to Spray, which is apparently the natural home for ethical disputes here. Is that so, Mighty King Cat-Bird? Speaking from experience? or is this the idle chatter of the royal kitchen-help, overheard by the polo-pony trainer and passed on to you via the chief butler? "It's good to be the king!"

Hey Mr. Harpell You seem to be a cool cat and all....but could you do us one LITTLE favor? Could you put the sausage away? (TMI photographically speaking.) Thanks, babe! P.S. This guy might have some additional advice of interest: Certified Mohel

Playas? That's Spanish for "beaches". Maybe he's telling us we are sons of beaches...or maybe we should quit climbing "to chill out" and go to the beach. ?????? By the way, shouldn't you bolt-defenders be using the term "BLT's" to thwart "The Man" from finding out about your naughty activities during a Google search? Or did you finally realize that was silly business?

Speakin' of drillin....I heard there were some quick-draws hanging off a goofy "mixed" climb in Alpental. That fact became a real abuse-magnet on another tread and featured some of the same bad-talkin' moderators. Here's some "free advice" for you: whoever is responsible should remove their junk.

"I've got nipples, Fokker. Can you milk me?"

Back in your cave, Sexy-Cocoa. Go on, now! Git!

I just took a look at the new Tacoma climbing gym. NICE! It looks as if they put a lot of thought into it and the people I met there were refreshingly friendly. They are apparently providing complimentary passes through Sunday so check it out.