scrambled_legs

Not true if I'm understanding what you're saying. If you think that a knot, harness and body will recieve the same amount of force regardless of where you fall from, you're incorrect. The rope stretch acts in the same way on that end as it does on the individual pieces. The further you fall with the less rope out, the higher the impact forces will be on every single point and the shorter that duration will be. If you take a short 5 meter factor two fall, you'll receive high forces on the belay, belay device, rope, knot, harness and body, but it'll be a sharp quick fall. If you have 30m of rope out and then take the same 5 meter fall, you'll receive a long soft fall and both the piece that you fell on the, rope, the knot, the harness and the body, will all receive low impact forces but for a longer duration.

Here's another great site for you guys to crap all over: http://www.flightplanning.navcanada.ca/c...mp;TypeDoc=html If you go to the Graphical FA, button you can get some really good info and if you take a little bit of time to learn the symbols etc it'll tell you way more than any forcaster ever will with a lot more accuracy. http://www.flightplanning.navcanada.ca/Latest/gfa/anglais/Latest-gfacn31_cldwx_000-e.html If you look at this map, you can see that right now there is an upper low that is about to hit Vancouver Island. The pressure gradient is stable so the winds should be calm. The front is pushing an area of precip ahead of it with local ceiling 500-1000 feet above ground with mist, light showers of rain, light drizzle and a little further north ACC clouds are embedded signifying more wind and possibly heavy showers than the southern tip of the system. The upper warm front will hit the southern tip of Vancouver Island in Twelve hours with much the same conditions. IF you check the freezing levels on this map http://www.flightplanning.navcanada.ca/Latest/gfa/anglais/Latest-gfacn31_turbc_000-e.html you'll see that currently on the coast the freezing level is 2500' and just a little ways inland it is at the surface. In 12 hours the freezing level at the surface will have moved up to the mainland coast. A look at this site http://adds.aviationweather.noaa.gov/progs/ shows that the next significant weather system that will affect the lower mainland will be the cold front pushing SE ward and we should expect a drop in temperatures with clearer skys and warmer evenings. Some of this stuff just makes you feel smart but if you're planning an Alpine day, you can get some damn valuable info especially when considering a high avi danger route. I would suggest that every climber/skiier spend a couple of bucks and go to your local flight school for a met course. You can learn it on your own but the flight school would be faster and there is a ton of free weather info out there for pilots updated hourly thanks to our great gov. Nothing like a little bit of info to increase your chances of a successful trip or to make alternate plans.

The biner friction where the rope reverses direction, will take a lot of the force out of the fall. Combine that with the inertia of the still belayer and the rope stretch and it'll take a lot to pull someone off the ground let alone pop a nut. how many times have you become airborne catching a fall without jumping? If you and your partner have a similar weight, I wouldn't be too concerned.

Does anyone have any pictures or beta for the approach from Berg Lake to the start of the North Face? I've heard that this stretch has gotten extremely ugly in the last few years and Colin's TR seems to suggest that also. That is one understated TR if I've ever read one. No wonder why this guy is getting awards, the North face solo in under 2 days... sick, especially with descending the Kain not the SSW. I plan on taking 4 days and having 3 weather days and still would say that my chances of pulling it off with Robson weather, is slim. Any pictures or beta would be greatly appreciated.

Except you don't know whether the big hanging serac above the route is going to unload on your face. And spending more time below it roping up and placing gear in case a tonne of ice releases is safer how?

This has to be the first time that I can remember a male climber complaining about pictures of ass let alone pictures of perfect female ass.

I was on a treeplanting contract a few years ago in the middle of a record hot summer. One of the planters was having some problems with the supervisor. The planter was a 40 year old alcoholic who planted to stay away from the civilization and boose. Well over the months this feud began to grow and he made it more and more obvious that he had a hate on for the supervisor. Towards the end of the contract the supervisor's truck started to stink... bad. We were putting in 14hr days trying to finish the contract and working 10+days straight though so there was no opportunity to clean out the truck. Finally after half a month of stink, the crew refused to ride in his truck until he cleaned it. He started going through the truck finding old socks, clothes, and bits of food left over from planters gorging on the way home. He came across a shirt stuffed under his seat tied into a big circle and rather heavy for a t-shirt. As soon as he moved it a stench hit his nostrils and he went running for air. After arming himself with some gloves and a face maske he went back and fetched the steaming bundle. Turns out the planter took a shit in one of his work shirts and stuffed it under the seat 3 weeks before.

Off-Piste had a nice article in his memory as well. Is it still possible to purchase his photography? It would be nice to see his memory live on through his photography.

"Ice by dberdinka :" What route is that?

Does that mean I'll be smarter than Dru?

Cat, I've fallen clipping the second piece... over factor 1, ended up below the belayer. Not a big deal on a single but I doubt only a handfull of people have done this. I had a friend witness someone placing their second screw whip and they went well below the belayer... over factor 1. Screw and half rope both held I imagine we wouldn't be 2 of 5 people worldwide that have done this. I e-mailed a few rope manufacturers about my questions. The one manufacture said that they had tried the single test but couldn't get it to consistently pass a 5 fall rating. They said that 3 is probably a realistic number. They also agreed that it is strange that they don't pass the single rating even though being subject to the same forces. I think Geek hit the money in that they cannot be subject to a factor 2 fall like a single can. They also said that internal tests produce low enough impact forces when used in twin technique to be able to pass the UIAA standards. The problem is that it costs a lot of money to have this certification done and from their standpoint, its not worth the costs to have it officially classed as both a twin and a half from a cost benefit marketing standpoint. They also said the practice of mixing methods, Twin/Half in the same pitch is not recomended (where you are clipping the ropes to seperate gear and then clipping both through the same biner). I think this clears up everything now.

Thanks greek geek, that is exactly what I was looking for. I guess this is the reason why they use the different weights. When a guy considers this and the rope stretch returning in real world, not falling on the same point etc. it adds up to them being pretty safe. I haven't used 8.0mm half ropes until this season and it even made my willy pucker. I was just looking for some reasons why they are safe to climb on other than, "You shouldn't fall on ice or alpine anyways." I wanted to know why some of the old school guys refused to use half rope technique and why some rope manufacturerers say to only use half rope technique when their ropes aren't rated the same as singles. I think I'll use the different length draws if I have the ropes over a sharp edge still but after actually looking at it, I guess the half rope techniqe is bomber. Twin technique seems kind of pointless if the ropes are safe and it only increases the chances of your screw/gear failing. CatBird, thanks for the tips. Ya, I realise that the tests are the extreme. When I said I retire a rope rated for 12 falls after 8 good ones, I meant that it's probably had a couple of dozen falls on it in total but if there were 8 good falls, over factor 1, then I would probably retire it. I've never had big enough balls to get anywhere near that before the rope is retired for age or sheath wear but I would never want to push it to the testing limits. Thats why I was worried about using half ropes with what looked like some pretty slack testing. After everyones comments, I've realised that it isn't that slack and I'm willing to trust the rope. I just needed to know in the back of my mind that it will gaurantee a catch on a big whipper before I could put myself out there and push it. It felt like I was climbing on floss with an 8.0 after having climbed on 10.5s or 11.0s all my life. Dru... I'm done now, you can breathe easy.

I know that there are different weights used for the different tests, that's what I had put in one of my first posts and that's why I'm asking these questions. Is the single rope test with 80kg supposed to simulate the worst case scenario fall? That's what I took it as and so when I buy a rope that's rated for 12 falls, I usually retire it before 8 good ones. That way I know that I'm under the safety margin. A half rope takes the same force in a fall but they test it with a tiny 55kg weight? I always thought a half rope was tested under the same system until I started looking into it. When I found out that it is tested with a 55kg weight despite the same fall forces, it got me thinking. 55kg is what 121 lb's and I weigh around 170lbs with my gear? So when I buy a half rope with an 8 fall rating I shouldn't retire this at 6 falls but more like 2 or even 1. If the rope doesn't even pass the single test for 1 fall then maybe I should use a different system when I have the possiblity of a fall. If twin technique doesn't create too much of a shock load then I may start using it with a screamer whenever I'm in a dicy section. Or I might start using the trick with different length draws for each rope on one piece as someone suggested. Thanks for that by the way! My whole thing is that I'd like to know how many falls a half rope can take with the single test as that is what is happening when you fall on it. There is no difference in the force load when falling on a single or a half and who weighs 120lb's ice climbing? If I knew that it'd pass with a 3 fall rating then I'd use half rope technique always without worry but will it even hold one fall? I don't know cause they dont test it? When they tested the Beal Joker it went from 5 falls on the single test to 20 on the Half rope test. So my Phoenix rope which is 8-9.5 as a half, should be around 2 when tested as a single. Apparently my questioning this makes me a dumbass even though several other people on here clip twin technique or clip both ropes through different draws on the same piece when they're concerned about a fall because they don't trust half rope technique.

Where is the Climbing #7 pic from and the Ice #3??

And a half rope test is???

Okay well everyone seems to be in agreement that a half rope takes just as much of a force load as a single rope in a fall. THE FACT IS THAT HALF ROPES WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE BEAL JOKER, HAVE NOT PASSED THE SINGLE ROPE RATING!!!! Dru, please explain to me then why a rope that is taking the same force as a single cannot be rated as a single??? Please answer the above question oh brilliant one, as no-one has yet!!! As great as your smart ass comment is why don't you try and dumb it down a bit and write a little more with those pencils that you are so fond of so us common folk can understand it. I don't get why you don't understand my question? A half rope can't pass a single test but it can still hold a fall on a single strand? please explain!!!

Try alpine climbing. THe rope is fine its rated for a fall it can hold a fall thats what its meant for. Twins are the ropes you cannot do this, why buy twins, specialty item you hardly see them around because they have few uses. Really? What kind of Alpine do you do on an 8mm. I hope you are just referring to crossing glaciers or running snow ridges. You don't mean on fifth class alpine routes do you? I've never seen someone on 5.8 or harder with an 8mm, but that's what I'd compare climbing grade 4+ ice to. Why is the Beal Joker advertised so much if a half rope can hold the same fall as a single? Sorry just not understanding this yet.

No that's not what I meant at all. I was referring to the comments about clipping alternately. I took this to mean that you clip the left rope then the right rope then the left, regardless of where your protection is. Unless the route is straight up I don't believe this is right. I always took it as you clip whatever rope you have to to make them run the straightest line possible. The left rope to the left gear and right to the right. If you have 3 pieces in to the left of the belay and then wander right you should have 3 pieces clipped to the left rope only. This is where I'm confused. If you fall at that point you are essentially using the 8mm rope as a single and you never see a 8mm single rope being used. Why would having another rope attatched to the belay make this any safer than one single, besides the fact that you might be stopped with a factor two fall 30m below the belay? If its safe to climb like this, why isn't it safe to use an 8mm single? If on a wandering climb you alternate left and right rope, you end up with a mess of crossing "Z"s. Is that they way they're intended to be used so that if you pop a piece or break a rope, you only fall to the next piece on the other rope. My theory is that these ropes are strong enough to catch a big whipper. The problem is that they are so tiny a crampon, ice axe or rock fall can easily cut one of the ropes. If that happens, you just have to clip the other rope and you're still on belay. Thats why I think half ropes aren't rated as singles yet are practically used as one. Do you think is right?

This is straight from the Mammut website:

Flourescent tiger stripe Lycra pants... or is that still in?

Kind of interesting to see the impact force change. It goes from 5.2kn and 8 falls when tested for the half test to 8.9 and 18 falls on the twin test. My Mammut Phoenix is 6.0kn and 8 1/2-9kn in a half so you could guess that it would be around 10kn and 20 falls if it multiplies by the same figures. If you look at the Mammut 7.5mm twighlight twin it has a rating of 10kn and 19 falls. Doesn't really add up, would be interesting to see the results.

I don't believe they were designed to alternate clips but to clip the right rope to protection right of the climb and left rope to protection left of the climb. If you have a route that runs 4 pieces to the left before wandering to the right, you are climbing on a single 8mm rope for the first four pieces. If you just alternate back and forth you end up with a bunch of ugly "Z"s and a real mess. Maybe I'm misunderstanding this but that's how I understood the system was designed.

This is what I don't get. Mammut says to use either twin or double rope technique but they don't mention anything about the ropes being rated for both. The only rope that I've heard of passing more than one category test is the Beal Joker. If Mammut has been testing their half ropes as twins and they are passing, why don't we hear the results?

I need some beta on half rope use. I always thought that half ropes were never supposed to be clipped into the same piece of pro like twin ropes because the impact force is like using a static rope. So I just bought my first pair and read that you can use them with the twin system according to Mammut. I guess my big question is what sort of impact forces would you have and when should you be clipping twin and when half? The factory impact forces shown for the ropes can't be compared either. When they test twins they drop 80 kg on both ropes but half ropes only have 55kg dropped on one half. If you dropped 80kg on both halves the force may be through the roof. So if I clip both halves I'll probably end up with some pretty high impact forces that can pop gear. If I clip left and right, you can end up with some pretty big distances between gear and are practically climbing with an 8mm single. Should I only clip twin style if I have a screamer?

If anyone in Calgary-Banff area has any cheap holds kicking around or a good deal on bulk, send me an e-mail. shaun_peter@hotmail.com 306-351-1571 Cheers, Shaun.