gnibmilc

I'm just too stupid to remember so much stuff. the last thing i want to think about is if i got the knot right. i'm just barely able to remember the important knots that the mountaineers taught me.

I second that! Techno geek stuff is really neat to look at late at night when working too late. But otherwise even the wise cannukian with the daisy sounds better than trying to not get your pecker caught in that un-tethered bacchanalian debauchery.

The PMI and/or Beal 8.1mm. Get my vote. PMI rates and tests them as both twin and double use....but really we are talking about using these things for rappeling, not falling...but even then, the very low impact force of the 8.1mm in the double mode negates the need for "screamers" or any of that stuff. Even as a twin, the impact force is pretty low, better than most single ropes. you can simu-rap with them even if you are fat. They get a little flat but come back. I've rap'd a bunch on them and I just can't throw them out...the sheaths are still good, they've got bounce to them, although I've still never fallen on them on ice or rock or dirt. i trimmed them to 50 meters from sixty and just keep using them (maybe 5 years??). look at the weight of a pair of them compared to any single (plus a second rap line of any sort) or other doubles. Consider the impact force of these in double mode (when the protection/belay is poor) and the impact force in the twin mode (bolts, good cracked granite) and do the math. If you need two ropes to rappel, no question. If want to minimize impact force, no question (double). If you want minimize elongation to avoid a ground/ledge fall due to stretch, no question (twin). If you want to reduce drag on the wandering route - double mode. The only thing they suck for is single pitch sport climbing and they aren't too neat for the seconds when climbing as three because if they fall, they are going to stretch the fall into a good distance and could cut the rope if sharp corners, etc are around. http://www.pmirope.com/sport/pmiropes/dynamic/halftwin-8_1verglas.html

Yurtville in Kelly, Wy. It is one of the few places that is within (surrounded) by national park, has buffalo roaming around with snotty noses, elk, and views of the Tetons when you sit up in bed. but there is no climbing or skiing anywhere around and only mean people live there.

it's when you are running down wind and you want to change tax.

the Pro-Traxion is really easy to use and intuitive, ie, you can use it when you are semi-concious...my vote for the ultimate vertical camping hauling system...i've got one of the USHBA's if you want (one) cheap (one).

i had the pleasure of standing next to a french canadian gal, natalie, who snuck her prosthetic pee pointer into her pants when the drunk bunch of us wasn't looking. she seemed to have to arch her back a bit, but, otherwise, no one of the three of us noticed that she'd joined us until we were zipping up. the next morning she showed us several kitchen applications for it as well.

Pretty sure the 8th Edition of Freedom of the Hills is going to include a new Smith guide as an Appendix to the training chapter.

ummm..what the fuck is that supposed to mean? THAT MEANS THAT I THINK THAT THE PLACEMENTS ON C3 ARE OFTEN BODY WEIGHT ONLY. WHY WOULD YOU BOUNCE TEST THEM? OFTEN THEY JUST RIP WITHOUT STRESSING YOUR INTESTINES ENOUGH TO CAUSE YOU TO PASS GAS PAST YOUR PYLORIC VALVE. WHO GIVES A HOOT WHICH ONE FAILS WHEN YOU GIVE IT A BOUNCE TEST? I CARE WHICH ONE GETS ME TO WHERE I'M GOING WITHOUT SUBJECTING MYSELF TO A FALL ONTO A STATIONARY OBJECT OR INTO A CORNER OR OVER A ROPE CUTTING SHARP EDGE. SPACE IS OKAY. I am starting to think that either you haven't done much aid climbing, or haven't hammered many pitons. DETECTIVE LAMBONE, YOU'RE ON TO ME! I DON'T CARRY NO STINKING HAMMER AND HAVE MY FUN AID CLIMBING WHEN I FEEL LIKE IT. Two taps on a sawed off in a typical Yosemite pin scar is usually all you need to get a bomber bodyweight placement. AND IF YOU CAN TAP A SAWED OFF PIN IN FOR BODY WEIGHT ONLY (NO PROTECTION) PLACEMENT WHY NOT JUST USE A GADGET TO MOVE ON? BEAT OUT POCKETS ARE GREAT FOR HOOKS, YEAH? Lots of times you don't even need to hammer the pin at all, just shove it in there... YES SIR...TELL ME MORE. Look Socrates, I have taught a bunch of aid climbing courses, and taught several of my friends how to aid climb. Not once in that process did a hammer ever appear, not once was it ever advocated that they should invest in a hammer or pitons at first. GREAT, NOW SPRAY LIKE YOU TEACH!!!!! I have personaly only nailed pitons on three aid climbs that I have done. I climbed only clean routes for 6 or 7 years before I nailed my fist pin on an aid route (mountains not included). AND LOOK AT YOU...YOU DEVELOPED NICELY DIDN'T YOU. DON'T YOU THINK YOUR APPROACH WAS A GOOD ONE? WHY NOT ADVOCATE IT? THE REALLY STRONG GUYS AND GIRLS ARE GOING TO FIGURE OUT NAILING WITHOUT READING THIS STUFF. LONGS' BOOK AND HELP FROM A FRIEND WILL DO THE TRICK. FOLKS READING THIS STUFF SHOULD BE OUT CLEAN CLIMBING UNTIL THEY GET SAFELY SHUT DOWN ON SOMETHING TOUGHER THAN ZODIAC. Beginner wall climbers are going to contiune to get on the Zodiac, and that is fine. AND I THINK RICARDOS POOR STYLE NAILING WAS OFFSET BY HIS VISION, AND MENTAL AND PHYSICAL STRENGTH TO MAKE HIM NEITHER A HERO NOR A ZERO, BUT INSTEAD ABOUT AVERAGE FOR HIS LEVEL OF GUMPTION. HE PROBABLY FUCKED UP IN HIS EUPHORIC STUPOR REGARDING THE GEAR TROPHIES. WHAT DO YOU THINK? It is often considered the esiest route on El Cap. If I were coaching a first timer who was jumping on the Zodiac, I would advise them to climb some obscure line and learn to pound a good pin and head where it won't piss anyone off. People getting on a route like Zodiac should know how to use a hammer and pound a piton without over driving it, as well as place copperheads. If they don't then they are either kidding themselves, or resigning to learn the hard way when they need to. CALL IT THE ADVENTURE WAY. FOR GOD SAKE MAN, HAVE YOU SEEN THE HIGHBALL BOULDER PROBLEMS KIDS ARE CLIMBING THESE DAYS? YOU THINK RISKING A WHIP INTO SPACE IS MORE SERIOUS, STUPID OR NAIVE THAN HIGHBALL BOULDERING OR SOLOING 5TH CLASS MOUNTAIN ROUTES? DROP THE EGGS LAMBONE. These skills are part of the game of wall climbing. Zodiac is a route that can be climbed clean, but everyone knows that a clean ascent is highly relient on fixed gear. Should that gear not be there and you want to finish the route, then you will need a hammer, it is as simple as that. NO IT'S NOT. TRY IT. IT TAKES A LOT LONGER, BUT, YOU CAN GET UP A ZODIAC C3F PITCH WITHOUT A HAMMER AND WITH THE FIXED GEAR RIPPED...BEEN THERE...TAKES A LONG TIME...NOT CERTAIN OUTCOME....HARD WORK...CHEATING REQUIRED. REAL AID CLIMBERS, THE NAILING VARIETY, NEED TO KEEP SOME OF THE ROUTE IN SHAPE FOR US NON-HAMMER BEARING FOOLS, YES... If people don't want to be exposed to this risk then they should do the Nose, Salathe, or Tripple Direct (TOO HARD FOR ME!!!!!!!!). Even Lurking Fear, but then you still might need a head or two. WHAT RISK! EXPOSING THEMSELVES TO DOWN RAPPING? "WASTING TIME" NOT ATTAINING A ROUTE? DON'T PREACH YOUR WIMPY SIDE! CHEST BEAT ABOUT HOW HARD IT WAS TO SET A HOOK IN A COPPER HEAD THAT HAD LOST IT'S WIRE. Personally I would rather see people learn to use pitons properly before jumping on any El Cap route that might need a piton. YOU THINK YOU DIDN'T LEARN PROPERLY? BULL. I speak from my own inexperience here. People who have never aided on their own pitons tend to bash the hell out of them, either fixing them, or creating alot of damage when trying to clean them. SO KNOWING WHAT IS A KEY PLACEMENT FOR PERSONNEL PROTECTION DOESN'T FACTOR INTO YOUR PHILOSOPHY? You also seem to thing I'm advocating nailing pins in offset alien placements or bomber cam hook placements that will hold 99% of the time. No, wrong...you and I arn't even talking about the same thing here...do you have any idea what I am talking about? NOPE, I DON'T. I THINK YOU HAVE TO SEPARATE "POINTS OF PROTECTION" FROM PLACEMENTS FOR "UPWARD PROGRESS ONLY" IN YOUR PHILOSOPHY. THEN I WILL KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Lastly, to claim that the Zodiac is in some sort of "natural state" is to admit that you haven't climbed it recently. THAT WAS THE JOKE PART...IT IS BEAT. ...WASPS ARE A BIGGER CONCERN THAN FINDING THIN PLACEMENTS. THE HUBER THING IS A.... It is a contrived clip-up, no more no less. It's natural state is old school A5 Charlie Porter Style. Now it is covered in bolts and big fat trenched head placements, which is a whole 'nother issue. SO WHAT'S UP? YOU RECOGNIZE THE SYMPTOM, BUT NOT THE CAUSE? The Hubers free climb is a squeeze job with new bolts and anchors all over the place to the right and left of the route HMMM....CAN YOU DRAW A PARALLEL BETWEEN ENCOURAGING FOLKS TO STRIVE FOR SUPERHUMAN HARD FREE CLIMBING GOALS AND ENCOURAGING NORMAL PEOPLE TO STRIVE FOR REALLY HARD CLEAN AND RELATIVELY SAFE AID CLIMBING GOALS./OBJECTIVES????? They had to remove a bunch of bomber fixed heads to use the dug out trenches as finger pockets. To call that anything resembeling a "natural state" is just a load of crap. YEP. SORRY FOR THE SUBTLE NATURE OF THE JOKE...GOT NO KIDS EITHER. People arguing over the preservation of the Natural Beauty of the Zodiac are really a joke in my opinion. YOUR ONTO THAT JOKE, BUT THEN YOU JUST IMPLIED IT'S A SHAME THAT PORTER'S ROUTE IS GONE. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NEXT LINE WOULD YA. HELP DRAW THE LINE IN THE SAND BETWEEN WHAT IS OKAY AND WHAT IS LAME. No matter what anybody thinks, people from around the world are going to continue nailing a hand full of beat out pin scars until they take 1.5 inch angles, just like the Shield. Yeah I wish it was different, but thats reality. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WISH. BLOW YOUR NOSE, PULL UP YOUR PANTS, AND SPRAY ABOUT IT. Either way you argue the point people will allways disagree with you, I used to be a clean-aid nazi...going about like Will, slamming other people for nailing pins on routes that go clean. I THINK YOU OUGHT TO GET BACK A LITTLE CLOSER TO WILL. And I got twice as much shit for that (SUCK IT UP...)...so now I am admitting that I had to pound some pitons and that I don't feel too bad about it, I wish I had been able to do it clean, but I made a decision and I'm fine with it. SO AM I....EXCEPT THAT YOU ARE ENCOURAGING OTHERS TO DO IT WHEN YOU KNOW IT ISN'T NECESARY. If some gumby wants to take that as their own excuse to go nail on clean routes than so be it...nobody is perfect. BULL! Sorry I am so grumpy, but it is late... My spray point/question was really simple. Is IT better SPRAY style to adovocate clean climbing and to encourage folks to LEAVE the freaking hammer back home? Okay, I really do think your are a puss for bringing a hammer on your solo climb of Zodiac too. Especially with all of your experience. Step up! I'm mostly just jerking your chain, but, I do believe that especially around here, the slant should be toward hammerless aid climbing...and that is my spray. so one other thing Plato...if I were Socretes, would that mean I'd get to take your temperature tonight? and one more thing yet...i lead a group of Tacoma Mountaineers up AND down Glacier peak via the Kennedy Glacier route one summer. We had no hammers, only adzes. I guess i need to find and read the glacier peak story...does that explain your conversion to a born again nailer? and jesus, how do you clowns ever sleep, eat or work with all this bitching?

[A sawed of pin with one or two firm taps (not-blows) isn't going to affect the route that much. in no way is my intent to mess with your style. i do mean to challenge your net influence on new entries to aid climbing. they read this stuff and want to step right up to....Zodiac. do you really think a sawed off pin with one or two firm taps is going to even make you fart when it pulls? the offset alien or other gizmo isn't more solid 99% of the time (with respect to a tap tapped sawed off pin)? is your risk really lower tapping in the sawed off pin than fiddling the clean gear or stepping up on a bomber hook (sky or camming) to the next bomber clean point of protection that you can stick clip? shoot, there aren't too many spots to crash on Zodiac. couple of corners, a gnarly black spike, a ledge or two, the ground, that's about it. no matter, I just can't stand seeing guys/gals going out heavily ladden with a load of iron when they could be having a bunch more fun going at it clean...not pushing the style of ascending trade routes... your written words probably impact lots of people. and think of our children's lost chance to free climb these routes in their natural state!

hey what are you doing next weekend? there's an old free line at castle rock that hasn't been lead in years...you want to get some pins together and work on it?

lambone said: The whole "if it is too hard just rapple" card is just un-realistic bullshit when you are talking about a grade VI route. Being forced to rapple 3/4 of the way up El Cap because you cannot replace some heads or broken dowels is just plain lunicy. Now don't forget, we are talking about BIG walls here folks, not some practice route at index....don't confuse the two. something tells me you've never climbed those practice routes at Index without a hammer or rappelled them! but really, is it really that much more dangerous to climb Zodiac without a hammer? what is it that you climb for? managing risk? exposing yourself to a little fear and risk? or is it all about scoring an ascent of Zodiac and not worrying about having to rap the freaking thing? i heard guys used to stay way past their turn around time on El Cap big walls before yosar. those bull horns in the meadows will be talking to you fast if you're hurt...El Cap isn't Baffin. seems odd that you effectively encourage new aid climbers to bring a hammer on a trade route. why not challenge them with relatively SAFE clean aid climbing. hmmmmm. lunacy? different priorities.

a note to those with the experience to advocate nailing on Zodiac: what's the big deal with stepping up to the challenge of not carrying a hammer on a route like Zodiac? it is MORE difficult. it is scarier. the outcome isn't as sure. you might have to back off and get stuck doing some lousy rapping and leaving gear. you might have to set a pecker with the side of a camelot. you might have to figget for 6 hours on the nipple pitch after you rip all the fixed gear out of it. isn't NOT carrying a hammer just like carrying your fecal matter off the top of the route. if these good practices make the route too hard...maybe it would be better to do something more moderate to build up to Zodiac. isn't that the fun? WA column - leaning tower - cannibis wall - index upper wall - liberty bell - leaning tower - chief - got no good routes? Ricardo is going to be doing easier routes to catch up to his poor style high adventure solo of Zodiac...bet on it. the constructive aspect of the abuse here is that it will influence him and a bunch of others. go climb lots of stuff without a hammer...you'll figure out clean aid climbing a lot quicker than if you bring a hammer and nail your way out of a scary situation on a route a little too big for your best style. And you'll learn how to minimize the use of pins real quick. don't confuse the Huber bros with 98% of the readers here. don't we need to hear that nailing is bad? with enough experience, most folks will figure out when they need to BRING a hammer and bolt kit for that matter, without getting hurt. don't want to encourage too many new entries into aid climbing to be too impatient to learn without a hammer do you? isn't it truly fun to climb without a hammer because of the added challenge?

what does the bible of NW mountaineering say on the topic you ask? "Aid climbing takes a lot of gear, but it needn’t be damaging to the rock. With all the chocks and camming devices on the market, you now have a better chance to climb routes clean, without putting in a single piton or bolt. The chocks and other devices can be removed without defacing the rock, and the next climber won’t even be able to tell you were there." what does the Candian Mountaineering Handbook say anyhow?

well shit, there aren't even any sharks up there.

i gotta try my hand at ending this thread....anyone who TAKES a hammer on zodiac is a big wooooooooosie.

what he meant to say was...unless you think you may need a third tool to throw at your belayer below, the only good thing to use a third tool for is to loan to someone who only has one.

"...sorry...the windows are frozen shut!" shortly after partner drops ass in the front seat of his pickup truck while hurling down highway 89...

it'll be okay... climbing can mix with snow showers. maybe there will be some fresh tracks to be made on the big tetons. thanks for suggesting i bring the sticks!

yep, i meant 10/30!

I'll be in Jackson for a week or so to do some work and will have a day or two to climb. Anyone going to be out that way later this week (11/30) or next?

a marital aid?

some of the mounties teach a rewoven 8 backed up with an overhand, on the ends of the rope, and a bowline with a bite with a locker anywhere in between.

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