Buckaroo

""A quick note on the conspiracy theory that the war was waged to pump up oil profits (which it certainly did): "" Read the PNAC docs, they don't look at oil as a profit center but as a control method. Control of the oil means control of an oil driven world society. They are keyed on the region because it has oil, they may want democracy in some cases, some of them, but it's secondary to the imperialism.

"You were very specific about acerage, etc. Did you just make that up too?" The exaggeration was about a razor knife I believe, I'm sure it's orthoscopic by now. How come you can't argue the facts? All you are arguing is my style in a ad-hom manner. here, try again the base argument is US colon cancer rates, which are above all other countries, is tied to too much meat, meat which has an adverse affect on the environment by the way it's currently raised.

""No. Actually, you didn't."" It was 4 people initially and 7 total who easily could be called nazis including one who worked directly with the actual Nazis. It was in the campaign and not the admin, big woop. You found one hair splitting technical innacuracy in all my posts. Hey Fairweather, if arguing on the intenet is like competing in the special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded, then where does that put you when you lose like your doing in this thread? "Do you understand how racist your comment was?" And you didn't read the article either. I don't care if Jews have heavy influence in the media, I'm just saying that they do. And if you're a repug then you are with the party of racists, PERIOD. How many black repugs did you say there was in the house and senate? -------------- It's funny how people excuse current corruption and atrocities perpatrated by individuals of a certain race just because of that race's past suffering and oppression. The US congress is p-owned by AIPAC http://www.wrmea.com/archives/July_Aug_2004/0407027.html TOTAL 1978-2004 AIPAC Funds to Congressional Candidates $39,532,465 Media Influence Let me be perfectly clear, I harbor no ill will towards jewish people, just like I have none towards our government as an institution. It is the corrupt individuals within the jewish population, the zionists specifically and the bush cabal specifically within the gov that I disagree with. How does that make me rascist? The Jewish population in the US is about 2-5%?. Jews hold about 90 percent of the top CEO type positions in the 5 companies that control 90 percent of the mainstream corporate media. No other ethnic origin is even on the map. Sounds like a biased influence to me, how about you Fairweather? * RICHARD BERNSTEIN jew Western Publishing. childrens books * STUART BLOOMBERG jew ABC Head of Entertainment Division. * PETER CHERNIN jew 20th Century Fox. dec. 1992 new CEO * MARTIN S. DAVIS jew Paramount Comm. CEO * BARRY DILLER jew 20th Century Fox. CEO * MICHAEL D. EISNER jew WALT DISNEY Co. * STEVEN FRIEDMAN jew NBC Executive Producer Nightly News. Hired may 1990 under G.E. (gentile) owned NBC. * LEONARD HARRY GOLDENSON jew ABC (Capital Cities ABC TV) (upto 1985. Thomas Murphy now CEO but with same Jewish management) * KATHERINE MEYER GRAHAM jew Newsweek, Washington Post. Daughter of Eugene Meyer. * PETER GUBER jew Columbia Pictures. 1989. Bought by SONY, Guber replaced Kaufman as CEO. * PETER KALIKOW jew New York Post. Real estate devloper. * PETER R. KANN jew Dow Jones, Wall St Journal, Barrons * VICTOR A. KAUFMAN jew Columbia Pictures. CEO * CHARLES KOPPELMAN jew EMI Records CEO * GARY HERSH jew Capitol Records CEO * GERALD LEVIN jew TIME/WARNER Comm. CO-CEO * ROBERT MAXWELL aka Ludvik Hoch jew. Daily News. * RONNESSEN jew MBS. Mutual Broadcasting SYS. * SAMUEL NEWHOUSE russian jew Random House, Advanced Publications, Newhouse Broadcasting, (CTV), New Yorker Vogue, Mademoiselle, Glamour, Vanity Fair, HQ, Bride's, Gentleman's Quarterly, Self, House & Garden. Newspapers & mags. * MICHAEL OVITZ jew Media magnate. * WILLIAM S. PALEY russian jew CBS CEO & founder of CBS. 1927. 1983 Partially retired. * SUMNER M. REDSTONE jew Viacom MTV Nickelodeon QVC. CEO. * STEVEN J. ROSS jew TIME/WARNER Comm. CEO. * JEFF SAGANSKY russian jew CBS Head Entertainment Division. * DAVID SARNOFF russian jew RCA NBC head entertainment div. * ROBERT SARNOFF russian jew RCA NBC CEO (son of D. Sarnoff). RCA and NBC were bought by G.E. in 1986 but Jewish management still exists. * MICHAEL P. SCHULHOF jew SONY. Vice chairman. * RICHARD SNYDER jew Simon & Schuster. * LEONARD STERN jew VILLAGE VOICE. HARTZ pets supply. * ROBERT STRAUSS jew Large investor, President Bush's Moscow ambassador. * ARTHUR OCHS SULZBERGER jew New York Times, family circle. McCall's, M. Frankel, J. Lelyveld, J. Rosenthal - all Jews. * BRANDON TARTIKOFF russian jew Paramount pictures. Chairman. * LAWRENCE A. TISCH russian jew CBS CEO TV, theaters, hotels, insurance. (Before him was 1928 William S. Paley son of russian jews. Retired 1983.) * LEW WASSERMAN jew MCA Inc. CEO. 1991. Bought by SONY. but Wasserman still is CEO. * MORTIMER ZUCKERMAN jew US News and World Report, DAILY NEWS. New ceo. <<<<<>>>>> A FEW NEOCONS/JEWS IN THE MEDIA William Safire The New York Times A. M. Rosenthal The New York Daily News Charles Krauthammer The Washington Post, The Weekly Standard, PBS, Time Martin Perez The New Republic Daniel Pipes The New York Post Dick Morris The New York Post Lawrence Kaplan The New Republic William Kristol The Washington Post, The Weekly Standard, Fox News Robert Kagan Mortimer Zuckerman David Gelernter John Podhoretz Mona Charen Morton Kondracke Sid Zion Yossi Klein Halevi Norman Podhoretz Jonah Goldberg Jeff Jacoby Rich Lowry Seth Lipsky Irving Kristol John Fund Ben Wattenberg Lawrence Kudlow Alan Dershowitz David Horowitz Jacob Heilbrun Michael Ledeen Uri Dan Thomas Friedman Richard Cohen Avishai Margolit David Remmick Eric Alterman

""A side note on beef, which has the greatest variety of amino acids of any domesticated meat, tastes fucking great, and is not unhealthy if eaten in moderation"" Agree, it's not beef per se. It's too many servings combined with lack of exercise combined with the chemicals. The cooking/heating doesn't do much good either. The most harmful aspect is the heated fats. In Europe raw beef is served as steak tartar(sp?). The more raw you can take it the better, but then bacteria becomes a problem. Of course you can go with sashimi once a week which is what I do when I get run down in these long grey winters. I think it's part of Japan's secret, after all they are a fierce competitor in the engineering/manufacturing sector. "Grass fed beef raised with proper pasture rotation is a completely sound environmental practice, typically much more so than grain production on the same land. Grass fed beef raised on semi arid natural grassland does not require..."" Your right here too, the only problem maybe it's not as profitable and won't address the volume needed for mcD's. The beef rant was part hyperbole but the base argument is US colon cancer rates, which are above all other countries is tied to too much meat, meat which has an adverse affect on the environment by the way it's currently raised.

"i couldn't find anything on 4 nazis in the current administration. buckaroo, any links or info?" I had the gyst of it more or less correct but my memory failed on the details. They were on bush srs. campaign staff, not his admin and they weren't German Nazis but Nazi collaborators and sympathizers. But there were as many as 7, not just the 4. The point being that it's the Nazi/fascist ideals that are infused throughout the bush family history, not the actual party, athough the grandfather had very close connections directly to Hitler. "a dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, as long as I'm the dictator" -------------------------- http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?noframes;read=15726 In late summer, during the 1988 campaign, the seeds of a major Bush scandal began to take roots. On August 2 1988, the Bush campaign, in a press conference announced the formation the Coalition of American Nationalities to coordinate the campaign activities of "ethnic groups". Five weeks later on September 8th, The Washington Jewish Week charged that several of Bush's ethnic advisory committee were "well known anti-Semites and pro-fascists." The article focused on four Bush advisors, including Jerome Brentar, who had worked with groups who claimed the Holocaust was a hoax, Ignatius Billinsky president of the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America which is described by Reporter Russ Bellant as "heavily influenced" by "anti Semites and collaborators with Hitler and apologists for Nazism." The article also focused on Florian Galdau who was described by Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal "as the leader of a Romanian pro-Nazi and anti-Semitic movement in New York City", and known racist and anti-Semite Philip Guarino. The most shocking character though was Laszlo Pasztor, who served in World War II as "an official in a anti-Semitic Hungarian government controlled by the anti-Semitic Arrow Cross" Henry Siegman executive director of the American Jewish Congress said that "It suggests a high degree of insensitivity or incompetence on the part of Bush's staff." Mr. Siegman also expected Bush to "not only remove these people but to repudiate what they stand for." Albert Vorspan, senior vice-president of the Union of American Hebrews called the story "outrageous and frightening" that the Bush campaign would harbor such "notorious extremists." Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League said "there is no place in any campaign for anti-Semites. The League urges that these persons be summarily removed." The Bush campaign spokesman Mark Goodin, announced at a press conference about the charges: " If there is anything to them, we'll take action." James Baker, Bush campaign chairman later said "There is no place in this campaign for anti-Semitism, racism, bigotry or people who espouse these views. Any individuals with those views will not be welcome in this campaign." On September 9th Bush spokesmen Mark Goodin announced that Jerome Brentar had resigned from the campaign. Two days later, The Washington Post carried a story that Bush Advisor Fred Malek had also resigned from the campaign. Malek, according to the Post, while serving as aide to President Nixon had compiled lists of employees with "Jewish-sounding" names that Nixon suspected were part of a "Jewish" cabal at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Michael Miller, executive director of the Jewish Community Relations Council tells the New York Times "There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that these individuals have expressed sympathies with Nazism." On September 12 the Bush Campaign announced five more resignations from Galdua and Guarino, Billinsky, Pasztor and Bohan Fedorak. It was soon revealed that Mr. Fedorak hosted a Bush campaign appearance in July of 1988 which was co-hosted by a pro-Nazi group. A few days later Radi Slavoff, national co-chairman of Bulgarians for Bush, becomes the seventh Nazi sympathizer to resign. On September 15th CNN runs an interview with Jerome Brentar, who claims he never really resigned from the Bush campaign and denied that the Nazis deliberately gassed Jews during the Holocaust. Bush spokesperson David Sandor quickly responded to the interview: "This is obviously in conflict with what we have said. We stand by what we have said. Mr. Sandor also said that "George Bush is their friend" in regard to the seven staffers who resigned. On September 27, in a Boston Herald column Alan Dershowitz revealed that he had information regarding the Republican Party and Nazi sympathizers. Mr. Dershowitz writes "I first heard about the presence of Nazis in the hierarchy of the Republican Party as far back as 1970." While he was working on the New York Governor's race Dershowitz said he "learned that several members of a Republican 'Captive Nations Committee' were Nazi sympathizers who had been personally involved in the Holocaust in Europe, as well as with racist and neo-Nazi groups in America." That same day, New York Post columnist Pete Hamill wrote a column "George Bush And His Fascist Fan Club" and quotes Menachem Roseensaft, president of the Labor Zionist Alliance and leader of the International Network of Children of the Holocaust: "Clearly Bush wanted them out once they were exposed, but he still wants the votes of their constituency." Four days before election day, The Philadelphia Inquirer reported that another Bush ethnic coalition leader Akselis Mangulis, is accused of belonging to the Latvian Legion, which during World War II was connected to the Nazi SS. Before the paper hit the stand Mr. Mangulis resigned. The following Tuesday, mostly because of his strategist Lee Atwater's self proclaimed "guerrilla tactics" Bush defeated Michael Dukakis in a landslide. Even though James Baker said there was "no place in the campaign for anti-Semitism (and) racism" Bush campaign strategist Lee Atwater, a prot�g� of Senator Strom Thurmond, who used anti-Semitism to win a congressional seat for Carroll Campbell in 1978, stayed in his position while this whole scandal erupted. Mr. Atwater also created the notoriously racist Willie Horton ad, associating Michael Dukakis with images of black prisoners furloughed from jail raping and pillaging the streets of White America. Over a year later on February 2 1990 in a USA Today article, Tom Squitieri writes that "Four Key Republican activists, ousted from George Bush's 1988 campaign amid charges of anti-Semitic or pro-fascist links are back working for the party." According the article, two of the four were Fred Malek and Phil Guarino.

" You throw out dozens of bullshit claims" none of which you've factually refuted ehh? You're whining about links, where are yours? I'm going by memory, don't need links, just the knowledge that they are there. I don't think you'll find much to refute me or you would have already. "That's probably the weakest bullshit reply I've ever read." You're initial reply was about 1/2 ad-hom and only addressed about 1/2 of my original points, now you're reduced to a paragraph of pure ad-hominem. Seeing your faults in others ehh? "The internet is not a library..." ROTFLMFAO!!!! You demonstrate your level of intelligence so clearly here. The internet's most useful purpose it serves is as a... library. I'm through arguing and don't want to come across as hostile among fellow climbers, which is what usually happens when arguing politics, but I will leave you with this. ""I believe your vegan diet has impaired your ability to think"" Any peer reviewed science to back that up? (Clue, from my memory there is none, so waste your time looking for links on the internets if you want.) I will educate you about PUTREFACTIVE BOWEL SYNDROME though. From your profile you're not physically sedentary now although you're probably headed that way, and going by your posts your brain is half sedentary already if not entirely. You eat meat everyday I bet, sometimes 3 meals a day. When you become sedentary that meat will start staying in your gut for 3 days before you #2 it out, because meat takes longer to digest, especially without exercise. Plenty of time for that meat to rot. You do know dead meat rots at body temp right? Dead rotting meat gives off toxins which your body ends up absorbing through your worn out bowels which you've been abusing all these years. Not to mention all the synthetic hormones and antibiotics they put in meat, hey, just say no to drugs. (or just "some" drugs as rummy's pharma buddies would have us believe) People are going to smell your farts from 50 yards (that's not an exaggeration), it's called THE SEDENTARY MEAT EATER FART and it is RANK. And odds are you're going to end up with colon-rectal cancer. You're going to be laying on your stomach on the gurney while some colon-rectal doctor, and a majority are males, is going to be digging around in your a**hole with a razor knife! Have fun dude!!!!!

Sorry to burst your bubble Buckaroo, but I believe your vegan diet has impaired your ability to think. No doubt Foraker will be along to point out some the 'critical thinking' deficiencies in your posts, but until then I'll try to help you through this difficult time: this is generally a waste of time but I'll go one round with you "Have to side with Virendra on this one." Damn. That's not a good start. No, your ad hominem is not a good way to start "Since the advent of the atom bomb war is just a racket (well even before). The recent wars in the middle east have been fought for oil". Like the Palestinian/Israel conflict? Can't understand a general statement? Specifically wars we are directly involved in, the P/I war is for land and ideals. But they are trying to open the Haifa pipeline. Happy now, specific enough for you? No comment on WMD's? or "terror"? Denying the oil is connected to our wars there? "Saddam was installed by the CIA to control an oil rich region." Saddam was home-grown...with a little help from Egypt's education system and a perverted uncle. Please demonstrate US complicity in his rise to power. try the bush boy's "the google" What's the first thing that happened after "shock and awe"? Well besides securing the oil field's..." Great! I didn't realize we had actually secured...anything. What's Iraqi oil production up to these days? Did you see the price of gas jump after we invaded? Hello? Are the insurgents shipping oil past our air superiority? It's not about volume it's about control. "Saddam killed about 30,000 Iraqis over a span of 20 years. By some estimates bushies war has already killed 650,000 Iraqis in just 3 years." Huh? Add a zero to Saddam's internal tally - and subtract one from the later. Sounds like limbaugh numbers to me, or Faux news. 300,000? where's the mass graves? Same place as the WMD's? No distinction between soldiers and civilians? Also, I believe you forgot about a million Iranians killed by Saddam 1980-1988. Don't they count? A war we promoted, encouraged, supported. He probably wouldn't have been capable without our help. We've always bought his oil even during embargoes. Just our embargoes and bombing between the gulf wars killed over a million Iraqis. "And the CIA has killed an estimated 7 million since it's inception, mostly overthrowing democracies and installing dictators." Wow! Maybe you could share the breakdown with us? "the google" "You could look at the Israeli connection also with all the dual citizen"crazies" at the defense department, wolfy, et al and the PNAC. Their plan was for an expanded Israel power through US wars helped on by the Israeli lobby." Ahhhh yes.... Now were down to brass tacks! It vaz ze Jewz!!! Pathetic, Buckaroo. Really Do you deny the high number of dual citizens in the bush admin, particularly on the defense side? Do you deny the 15bil annual subsidies to Israel, or the 15mil of those dollars coming back to politicians via the 2nd largest lobby in congress? Why is a foreign nation allowed to buy our politicians? Such a small country and we give more subsidies to them than all others combined? Do you deny Jewish influence in 90 percent of the mainstream media? "I think rummy the neo-nazi corporate neo-fascist has buggered that for them on the sly." Neo-Nazis? But Wait!! I thought it was the Jews!! Can ideals live on after a defeat? What are Rummy's ethnic origins? Do you deny the bush family connection to Hitler? Were there four former nazis in the bush one admin? "America the killers. The genocide of the Native Americans was one of the most successful in the planets history. Before WW2 Hitler sent emissaries over here to study how we did it." Dates? Names? Help us out here, asshole. You're beyond help unless you help yourself, it's all there in "the google" If you don't believe it why don't you post some opposing numbers. "I give about 10 percent of my net earnings to environmental causes." Great! A tithe! More proof that environmentalism is just like a religion. Many in the rest of the developed world give 10 percent to charities, Americans give less than 2. If you don't think that environmentalism is connected to science unlike religion which surely is not then you are truly beyond hope. Oh wait, you believe in rush limbaugh type "science" sorry to disturb your trance. "man needs air to breath, the plants create that atmosphere." Um...I thought you said you studied environmental science? You don't understand general terms, layman's terms? Sorry, can't dumb it down any further. "And McDonald's has stopped growing also, one of the prime mother nature rapers. Good reason to be at least a partial vegan." Yes. Of course. No refutation here because there is none? Deny it takes 32 lbs of grain to grow one pound of beef? Deny deforestation to raise cheap cattle? Deny nearly 80 percent of world population is primarily vegetarian? "thanks to "the internets"" At least you're willing to reveal the spring from where your vast knowledge flows! Keep at it....the truth surely resides where you look! I go to the downtown library for the aesthetics, but generally the internet is the best. What's your source, are you a boob tuber? Rabid-Reich-hater-baby talk radio?

'"the manhattan renovation project" ha ha ha, never heard it called that LOL! the truth is sometimes.... funny.

"You have a lot of info that no one remembers." thanks to "the internets" "To divide us into colored states is an artifice to manipulate us." no doubt. Divide and conquer. The conflict is not the false one of liberal/conservative manufactured by the wealthy elite's propaganda. It's class warfare, the rich and the poor. It's being waged by the rich, it just takes a while before the sheeple wake up. "I hope the CIA does not cut my rope!" the internets are huge, you're lost in the noise. the only people who get hit are at the top audience wise. Less audience than Colbert or Olbermann your safe.

"I especially agree with the gene pool culling in some cases. It just happens sometimes to the best of us." after a re-read, realized it wasn't fully like intended. Didn't mean as in this case where people died, but in the living pushing themselves and improving then passing their genes on. Still it works both ways. The couch sure isn't going to do anything but decline.

ahh back in the day, northern NM ,snow 4 mo/yr, living in a storage building with open doors and windows. nice down bag. heater? what's that? And all these people dieing from carbon monoxide cuz thers no lectric. sigh...

long as you don't have 8 kids we're ok

""My hat is off to you for supporting your beliefs so strongly."" thnks for everones kind words, givin up the soap box after this. man needs air to breath, the plants create that atmosphere. The destruction of animals is a potential precursor of the destruction of plants. Currently we are in the middle of a species die-off at a estimated rate of between 15,000 to 100,000 species per year. Dr. Leaky wrote a paper on this. Through the earths eons there have been 5 such die-offs. The only difference between then and now is the conditions conducive to species recovery are worse this time. The same things that kill animals kill plants. If we don't do something on our own we will probably get our own die-off. That's why the Christian church is so wrong, no birth control is a mantra for ancient times when man's existence was insecure. The opposite is true now. And don't think Islam is too much better on this. And the population of the 1st world is more critical than the 3rd because that's where more destruction emanates. You would think though that's where the best chance of correction would also come from. There is a glimmer of encouragement here in that 1st world numbers peaked in the mid 70's. Although looking at China it's a problem that still needs address. And McDonald's has stopped growing also, one of the prime mother nature rapers. Good reason to be at least a partial vegan. If everyone on the planet had a big mac and a car, we'd all be dead tomorrow.

Have to side with Virendra on this one. Since the advent of the atom bomb war is just a racket (well even before). The recent wars in the middle east have been fought for oil. Saddam is a warmonger, just like bush cheney rummy et al. But he did hold warring factions together by force in relative peace. Before the Iraq Iran war Iraq was the most progressive of the Arab states with the best education, the highest standard of living and the least economic disparity. Their reading level rivaled that of the US. Saddam was installed by the CIA to control an oil rich region. The CIA is just the police arm of the wealthy elites. Saddam strayed from the reservation when he wouldn't cooperate with the wealthy elites (oil companies). (Oil companies are the richest on the planet.) Saddam's first time was his war with Kuwait. He was manipulating the oil market so bush 1 decided to reign him in by tricking him into attacking Kuwait. The Iraq atrocities incubator babies was a PR fabrication created by Hillton/Knowles a huge US PR firm to get the US behind the war. The PR cost's were paid by Kuwait and the bushies. The "nurse" who gave testimony before congress was the daughter of the Kuwati ambassador. This all was later admitted on TV by James Baker. Saddam's second infraction was in 1999 when he converted all his oil dollars to Euros. The dollar dominates the world monetary market so if the Saudis had followed this would be a huge blow. (And BTW Cheney's Halliburton was selling to Saddam during the 90's embargo and has also dealt with Iran during their embargo.) What's the first thing that happened after "shock and awe"? Well besides securing the oil field's, Iraq's oil Euros were quietly converted back to dollars. So the second gulf war is for control of the world money exchange, control of the second largest oil reserves, and unfettered military spending. WMD's and fighting "terror" is just the propaganda reason. One other thing, during the first gulf war bush 1 installed US military bases near the holy lands in Saudi. This was Bin Ladens number one gripe. Get you soldiers off our holy lands. What was the first thing that happened AFTER gulf war 2 started? Bush jr. removed those bases from Saudi holy lands. Giving Osama exactly what he wanted. (in exchange for playing a good patsy?) This was right after they "failed" to catch Osama when they had him surrounded at Tora Bora. Just think about it. Cheney has control of our military actions IE no bid contracts and also is connected to a company that gets those contracts. The defense industry gets paid to blow everything up and then Halliburton gets paid to rebuild (which never really happens). Then the oil companies cash in because they are getting un-metered oil from Iraq and also are controlling supply. Why do you think the barrel price has skyrocketed? And the bush/cheney/rummy warmongers are connected to ALL these companies. By sheer numbers the bush cabal makes Saddam look like a piker. Saddam killed about 30,000 Iraqis over a span of 20 years. By some estimates bushies war has already killed 650,000 Iraqis in just 3 years. And the CIA has killed an estimated 7 million since it's inception, mostly overthrowing democracies and installing dictators. Wealthy elite companies can't make as much profit with a democracy. Saddam's trial was a total sham. And not positive but think it was against the Geneva conventions which say no trials in a war zone. Of course the Geneva conventions were put in place to counteract Nazi atrocities, why do you think the bush cabal disregards them? And bushie's grandfather Prescott ran the biggest US bank that bankrolled Hitler up until one year after we declared war. But the trial had to be that way because if Saddam had been tried at the Haige he would have implicated the bush cabal big time because they've been connected for so long. A big time warmonger/killer executing a smalltime warmonger/killer. When we attacked Iraq the second time his army was ranked 40th in the world with a 1.2Bil defense budget compared to the US 450Bil. Whoo hoo, some victory bushie boy. Like Mike Tyson against a blind quadriplegic aids victim. Of course the guerrilla has bit them in the butt, but the military industrial complex wanted it that way, a low level war not fought to win (ie nukes), just like Vietnam, means more long term profit. And the timing of the hanging, just to foment the ongoing profit center war. Just like Abu Graibe. How do you think they allowed photos and vids to be taken in a secure area and then those photos all released to the mainstream media? Unless it was intentional? If you look closely the Iraqis were not fighting before this, it took this event to set them off. And the mainstream media, what a joke, the propaganda arm of the wealthy elites. All you sheeple bow down to the TV. 90 percent of Americans get their "news" from the TV. In the last 20 years the ownership of 90 percent of the mainstream corporate media has gone from 50 companies to only 5. Consolidation means easier control. Now Cheney only has to know 5 people to control everything that the sheeple "know" about "whuts up." You could look at the Israeli connection also with all the dual citizen"crazies" at the defense department, wolfy, et al and the PNAC. Their plan was for an expanded Israel power through US wars helped on by the Israeli lobby. I think rummy the neo-nazi corporate neo-fascist has buggered that for them on the sly. Because now Iraq is sliding into the Iran muslim theocratic state. America the killers. The genocide of the Native Americans was one of the most successful in the planets history. Before WW2 Hitler sent emissaries over here to study how we did it. And Prescott went to Oklahoma and dug up Geronimo's-skull and had it on display in the Skull-and-Bones crypt. It's the hypocrisy, the killers killing Saddam because he's a killer, LOL. There is only one bright side to all the death. In my senior year in HS in the 70's I studied environmental science. Even back then it was a given that the earth can't support the current population boom of man. It's an artificially contrived number allowed by petroleum farming and the environment can't sustain it for a number of reasons. In that class we studied animal populations that overgrew their environment. The graph always leads to a crash in numbers. Aids and these wars are just a sign of a curtailment of man's numbers. While it may be a dark bright side it is also a necessary one for the planet's survival. I give about 10 percent of my net earnings to environmental causes. Man doesn't need any help directly but the earth does to ensure man's continued existence.

Found these definitions of winter on summitpost.org. was wondering what is the definition of a winter ascent in the PNW according to climbing record keeping, ie becky, mountainieers? I understand Climatological winter is average cold temps and Astronomical is by calender. What defines Meterological winter? ""Meterological Winter: December 1-February 28 (or 29). Most common definition for meteorologist and the one used by the National Weather Service (US)."" ""Climatological Winter: Varies, but in Colorado where I live, approximately Nov 21-Feb 21 or there abouts. Coldest average 1/4 of the year and the most accurate definition, but not as common since it varies region to region."" ""Astronomical winter: Northern Heisphere December 21-March 20 (or Southern Hemisphere June 21-September 20). Common only in the US and a few other countries. Not accepted in most of the world, and the least logical.""

I'm sorry. Maybe it is ghoulish to speculate. The children of plenty must search to find things of interest in their desensitized state. I've always loved climbing and don't get to do it that much being a slave to the grind. Not doing it that much means not concentrating on it enough to stay really safe. Maybe just like these guys, weekend warriors. There but for the grace of God or whatever/whoever go I. Analyzing someone else's *possible* mistakes is not valid? If we'll never know for sure why not try to analyze all the possibilities? Tell us then with your experience since I don't have "any", what was your gear list on Shishapangma sw face? Is that the Doug Scott route?

Just wanted to throw two cents on this one and since the other threads on it are locked, looks like it's going to have to be in spray. Should wait until the SAR report, but want to go into more detail anyway. Accidents are usually a result of a combination of factors. This one looked to be weather, physical condition of climber/climbers (age?) and lack of (for whatever reason) adequate gear/supplies. Also some possible complacency or underestimating Hood in winter. They sort of took their time on the approach which may have pushed them to the point where there was no time margin with the incoming weather. Maybe because of Kelly's age. It seems like he was overextended after the summit. He may have also been affected by altitude. This happens sometimes with people who climb in somewhere like Colorado. They are used to going to 14K' from a 7K' valley, which is only a 7K' gain. Whereas with Hood you are starting from near sea level and going to 11K'. It's not the peak altitude gained but the difference from base to summit. Not enough acclimatization. And altitude affects you at random, sometimes it will hit you and sometimes it won't, so you may have gotten away with it before but not this time. Add winter on top of that, colder takes more energy and makes it harder to breathe. Why did they not have adequate gear? No matter how fast they were they should have had minimum, at least one stove, one bivy sack and one pad between the 3 of them, and one insulated jacket per climber. If they didn't start out with this that was inadequate planning. Maybe they had this stuff and it got lost or dropped in the storm or from cognitive loss due to altitude or hypothermia. But this is questionable since two of them were still on their feet and tried to descend, you think they would have held onto a stove if they had one and just stayed in a snowcave and waited it out. Kelly was found without an insulating jacket. Again if one wasn't taken it's an oversight, most likely he had one and it was lost due to altitude sickness or hypothermia. Kelly made it up but was too tired or incapacitated to climb back down the hard way. They didn't have enough info to find the easy descent, either compass bearings or GPS waypoints and the weather made it even harder, due to low visibility. If they had had a stove they should have just waited out the storm. Instead the two who were mobile decided to go for help to save their buddy, knowing he was on the edge without water. The weather was too bad for a descent back down the hard way but they tried anyway. A pair of ice tools aren't "left behind", the two climbers most likely fell. The age difference and subsequent physical condition can sometimes be a problem. The older person not wanting to hold the group back goes past his comfort zone. The cell phone is an issue too although it probably wouldn't have helped in this case.. Digital is ok but analog capable is mandatory because of wider coverage, and a ziplock freezer bag to keep it dry. I can see going solo without a phone but with 3 people it's mandatory. And even solo it's nice to be able to call just to say your hunkered in a snow cave and going past your return time. On most of the volcanoes though they only work up high due to coverage. If you don't take it for yourself take it for those who care about you or who may have to rescue you. Even the best climbers can have an accident. Snowcave technique is important also. The huge opening in "Freedom of the Hills" is wrong, too much heat escapes. A survival cave has two small holes per person, especially if there's no sleeping bag. This is tricky with blowing snow, someone has to stay awake to make sure the vents stay clear. Complacency. Even the best climbers can drop their guard at times. Look at John Middendorf when he got stuck on Half Dome. Assuming because you made it ok so many times before you'll be ok with less this one time. The volcanoes in winter. Yes you've been on Denali but Hood in winter has very high snow rates and the wind combined with temps are enough to force you to dig in just the same. If you're not prepared to sit it out you're in trouble. It's like ducks in a row or links in a chain, know the easy descent for certain, carry the minimum gear and don't lose it, important in summer but multiplied in winter. Climbing is a game to hone the knife edge of the gene pool, you play to do just that. The stakes have to be high or it doesn't work. But there's no reason you can't stack the deck in your favor by learning from other's experiences.

Expanding on your valid thought... would be the technique of downclimbing. Does everyone train for that also? How many people do you see downclimbing in the gym? Downclimbing is in some ways harder but not as studied by most. Agree too with everyone's point about knowing the easier descent before doing the hard route. And if there is an easier descent then when on the hard route at some point "retreating" means going over the top to the easy descent. Backing off does carry a stigma although maybe not as bad as you imply. For instance I don't think "2nd Descent" used gear shop, or "Retreat" climbing mag would work out too good.

If you want to read about toughest climbs, it would be Doug Scott's descent/crawl off the Ogre with 2 broken ankles, or Simpsons "Touching the Void" or Diemberger's K2 "Endless Knot".

""we turned back.we could have done it,i got rational and i paid for it . i cursed and fumed for weeks.i'm still pissed. they say it's better to retreat when you shouldnt then climb when you shouldnt.... 'tever . that's true if you enjoy the feel of your tail between your legs"" I hate it when that happens. And then after you turn back and get too far down to go back up, the weather clears. Maybe toughest would be the Salathe. Got the short straw and had to lead the hollow flake. Then also got stuck leading the last pitch in the dark to two different bivy ledges on two different nights. Or maybe the North Face of Shuksan solo. Tried a variation on the pyramid, got stuck and had to wait till dark so the snow would freeze just to retreat and summit via regular route. Got off route on the descent and all gear got wet, a 24 hour storm came in, white out, shivered in a snow cave for 20 hours. Or maybe main peak of Index via Anderson creek drainage in the spring. Nothing technical, it was just a recon. 45 deg bushwacking for 1500 ft. Then a neverending series of false summits with exposed snowslopes. Then getting off route on the descent via the regular east route. Got to the lake by dark. Massive rockfall on the trail, just missed getting the chop because stopped to eat. Planned on about 14 hrs car to car, ended up being 24 and dropped 5 packs of Gu on the steep bushwack, a mental and physical blow. Or maybe solo North face of Chair. First pitch solid alpine water ice, then turned to sugar snow with a thin crust. Got about 100 above the ice, the crust got even thinner. Was dragging picks down about a foot before they would start to barely grab. Destroyed the crust to get up so couldn't back down. At one point the crust under both crampons broke loose and they dragged down about 2 ft before it barely caught them again. It was a total weight distribution thing, no way any one or even two points would hold you. About this same time a cornice broke loose but nowhere to go as I had gone to the only line where the snow was halfway climbable and no way to move fast anyway. The cornice was mostly sugar though and broke up before it arrived. Or maybe Ice Cliff Glacier on Stewart. Normal until the exit cornice, decided to go around on 30 ft pitch near vertical rock. Dry tool and powder snow. Camming adze, all weight on one tool smearing crampons with no edges. Reached right to cam another adze, put some weight on it and big boulder comes loose. Got past that and ended up perched straddling on a sloping snow slab, somehow scratched up and off, biggest sigh of relief ever.

Has anyone seen or been on the north face of Vesper Peak? was wondering if there's any snow or not?

The fascist bush regime is selling off our forests, 7,500 acres from WA state will go on the auction block. Hope none of this is in our climbing areas. link to location of forest lands they want to sell http://www.fs.fed.us/land/staff/spd.html#Washington copy of email from the NRDC, just sent em a $50 to stop the moneymongers Dear NRDC Member, I just sent you a longer letter by postal mail describing President Bush's plan to sell off 300,000 acres of our national forests to cover shortfalls in his out-of-control budget. Because our campaign to stop this attack on America's natural heritage is moving so quickly, I wanted to give you an email update right away -- and let you know that your support is urgently needed. You and your family stand to lose the most from the president's outrageous proposal. That's because you live in one of the 35 states that have been targeted by the White House for this unprecedented fire sale of America's national forests. Unless we fight back now, the next time you visit your local national forest to hike or camp or picnic, you could find a "No Trespassing" sign at the entrance or a brand new strip mall where a forest used to stand. This threat has grown even more dangerous in recent weeks. The Bush administration has rushed legislation to Capitol Hill that would give the president the power to start liquidating our national forests at will -- to treat them as little more than giant ATM machines. NRDC needs your immediate support to stop this unconscionable proposal in its tracks. Please go to https://www.savebiogems.org/lands/donate_c.asp right now and make a donation to help ramp up our campaign. Your gift will enable NRDC to alert and educate millions of people in those states that stand to lose some of their most valuable national forest lands . . . mobilize grassroots opposition in all 50 states . . . and generate massive political pressure in Washington. Remember: once our national forest lands are sold off, they will be closed to you and me forever. Please join me in fighting to keep our natural heritage off the auction block. Let's make sure that President Bush and Congress understand that our natural heritage is not for sale! Sincerely, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Senior Attorney Natural Resources Defense Council . . .

Wonder if it's caused by funding cutbacks from above? Like in Canada the yearly park pass went from around $50 to over $100 in just a couple of years. Or they just realized the fees like on Everest, $50K for a team of 5 (??), and that people will pay even that. So comparatively $500 isn't so much. Wonder if you'll just increase the illicit climbing if you charge too much for the typical "on a budget" climber?

Looking at the mixed guide again can see you are correct about Green Room. Think I was thrown off by the difference in the amount of ice. The latest mixed guide does show Shagadelic as a M6+ which is what it felt like if that's around 5.10. Everything was beat out except for Murchison and can agree that makes it easier.

""What type of climbing do you do best?"" The kind where you go upwards. "Best" is vague and usually size dependent (that's what she said) but you can always climb better than you can work. Seriously? Really? I'm guessing you mean sort of like Lynn Hill who freed the Nose because her small fingers allowed her to send the great roof? I'm small(light) with big feet so slabbing has always been easier, lighter weight with an average size rubber contact patch is advantageous. Uhmmmm.... we still haven't heard the originator of the question answer his own question?