Buckaroo

step aiders are stone age equipment, just because you are climbing stone doesn't mean you have to live in the stone age. Step aiders are harder to use and mean more to learn not less. Aid is the slowest form of climbing there is, why would you want to make it s l o w e r ?

If you use slider aiders like I recommended they are cinched to your foot all the time, so no real need for a daisy, just a fifi. Faster, less clutter, higher high step on each piece. Typically with step aiders City Park takes me 20 placements, with sliders it's only 18.

Get slider aiders, don't even mess with step aiders. They're better/faster for a number of reasons. I only use one daisy, and it's just a sling. City Park pitch 1, at Index but I'm sure there's stuff at Smith. Aid is useful, besides the obvious routes with mandatory aid, it's good to really learn gear placement.

NICE Is the first pic the face you guys climbed? Where does the line go?

I saw what you did there It looks freshly blasted yet the caption says "before the blast"

Well it looks like from this picture that trees were on the wall in the 1800's. And you should only honor ethics that are worth honoring. It might be interesting to try to determine where this pic was taken from and what part of the wall this is. Sure don't recognize the light colored part and it makes you wonder how much stone was removed and from what areas. The modern "quarry" area seems like it is further from the tracks than this pic, so that would make this the central area of the LTW. The chockstones in the chimmney seem secure but they are just sitting there wedged in the dirt. And you have to completely commit to the first one and it's a little overhanging, if it comes off you are going downhill with a 300 lbs chockstone in your lap.

And my apologies if I did the same. And yes safety is an issue. One other place that bothers me is the approach to the ledge below Aries. That chimney with the chockstones. You have to pull on them to scramble up. There used to actually be a ladder there. But I wonder if a ladder would get chopped? I guess you have to try to assess if it will be climbable with the chockstones removed. And the same question for the 1st pitch of Narrow Arrow Standard.

So maybe I/we should assess the trees on the LTW so we can get a consensus. I would think also that roots could hold things together in some cases. Where if they are dead then things are going to fall apart. Does anyone know where the trail starts to go to the top of the LTW?

I like this. They sell just the beaner, and the SS screw link is $3. Would want to take a closer look at that hanger or just use a Petzl. Was thinking more about bothering other climbers or park tourists with the noise of a blower, but you're right about the train.

I can agree that trees can be a safety issue. I remember the one on the ledge at the top of GM 1st pitch. Thought it was solid and it came completely off. There's also some scary ones at the top of the rotten section of the quarry.

What about the 1st pitch of Narrow Arrow Standard(5.7)? Can the loose blocks be cleaned like they were on Tatoosh? What pitch is dirty, the one to the top of Narrow Arrow tower or to the top of the wall? My normal days off are two days mid week. I have some tools including a pole saw. And was thinking about building a better muffler for a gas powered blower. Where does the walk up to the top of the wall start? I can contribute toward anchors also. This could probably be pieced together for less than what they are charging. STAINLESS ANCHOR

No offense, I'm sure if we met in person we could be friends. But you trolled me first, "Gypsylogger".

At the rate it's going it would be all the trees on the wall. and a 30' to 40' evergreen is not a sapling, especially on a rock wall, because they grow slower there. Mother nature's banzais. There's always more than one way to skin a cat. Evergreens don't dump that much stuff in the short term (annual). I've been climbing at Index since 1993 and never had a problem including the one up against Breakfast of Champions. How many hundreds or thousands of times has that been climbed without a problem, and now suddenly it's a problem? I think it's just someone that doesn't appreciate trees at all, and just wants the lower wall to be a dead zone. Hey this area is for climbing, no other living things allowed. And people that appreciate natural beauty? Well heck with them, we're here to climb without being inconvenienced. So if I come out there and help am I going to get mugged and my tires slashed by a gang of gypsy loggers? They're going to have to rename the route Japanese Gardens, because Japanese gardens have plants in them unlike stripped bare rock. Hey how about "Gypsy Logger Dead Zone"?

I'm trying to be diplomatic, why are you so hostile? It's more than 2 trees, it's been going on since the property sold. If there's a viable alternative to cutting down trees that many will say enhances the aesthetics and the view then why do you object? There's some things I've been meaning to do at the LTW anyway...

I'm not excited right now, I'm hella bummed out. I don't own a couch and I don't sit around very much, I'm on my feet at work right now. So this was discussed. How many people? Was there any kind of vote? The offer still stands to keep any area next to trees clean on the lower town wall.

and that is unfortunate. I wasn't aware of any discussion to log Index. If I'd know I would have been there.

If the cause of cutting down trees is so just then why does it have to be conducted "on the down low"? An evergreen doesn't drop that many needles on a yearly basis. The amount that had to be cleaned on the pitch above Thin Fingers was probably a decade of accumulation. Something that could easily be cleaned on an annual or bi-annual basis. Something that could even stay clean just from being climbed. Something that could have at least been tried to see if it would work. But instead now the irreversible has happened. Yeah, because Index was clear cut in the past, that makes it okay to now clear cut the lower town wall of every tree that's under 10".

Keep in mind the road to Garfield (I.B.) is closed to cars except on the weekends. It is open to mountain bikes at any time. They are fixing the road and bridges

I understand that some people don't care about other living things. Especially when it comes to their own inconvenience. I'd be glad to commit to keep this area clean that's affected by this big tree. And I have done route maintenance at Index in the past. Including hand drilling the bolt ladder on the start to City Park among other things.

Sure the choice to climb or not and how you climb is random I'm saying the rules outlining it as relates to the environment don't have to be.

grey area = nuance arbitrary = random

FYI I've never argued against bolts from an impact point. My only argument is when bolts are employed where natural pro is readily available, and that's from a difficulty standpoint not environmental. Pretty sure no one said "no climbing" was the line. And not sure how you extrapolate that that's the only non-arbitrary line that could possibly be drawn. Like you say it's a gray area but there's no reason lines can't be drawn there.

Depends on your definition of practical. And just because you don't draw a line in one place doesn't mean you can't draw it in another non-arbitrary place. And how is mutual respect going to accomplish anything if there aren't any lines?

I was unaware of the specifics "impact of a few bolts", and was talking more in general terms. Each person should do their best to minimize their individual impact. From driving a more economical car, or even a hybrid, to minimizing waste, to donating to environmental causes, and or volunteering. I think in the big picture Potter was no doubt a positive force but had minor disagreement with the impact of some of the things he did (mainly the use of helicopters). I don't blame him for anything, and think any climber can get caught up in the moment and not think about the impact. Just think that if he'd been a little bit more informed he might have done some things just a little bit differently. And then when you use "some logical perspective" and compare him to someone like BP's Tony Haward then Dean's detrimental impact is virtually near zero.

There's no reason you can't, at the same time, be as environmentally conscious as possible. Sure the modern first world existence has impact, but there's no reason it can't be minimized as much as practically possible.