DCramer

I think Greg and I both thought the bottom of LL (dirty version) was harder than SC. The clean bottom certainly has to be easier than its dirty version. Sounds like people think it's mid .10. The dirty version was not very fun.

LL use to put you on the City Park Ledges the clean version moves right to Lizard Ledge.

If you have climbed LL within the last 5 years you are climbing the "clean" version. Aren't you standing on a ledge at the end of SC?

I am not fond of them either....I did edit my previous post to adding "of free climbing" to the definition. I would add that I have never called any of your TRs weak sauce. I usally climb poser style too...

Sol - Here's my take: I say go put a route up in trad style but I do wonder about your definition of trad. Both DDD and Free were TR'd before the fa. Also Lunch isnt really all that runout. My guess from climbing it years ago was that DDD wasn't as crazy as some other routes. (eg Lee's ascent of the Thumb OW) Or comparing to a semi sport route: Zweibles was probably a more dangerous lead when it was first climbed simply due to friable rock. I broke off some rock trying to lead it decided to TR it and then broke off a bunch more. I should note that out of the three you mentioned I have tr'd DDD, TR &led NFL never been on Shriek. Just why have you found these classic? The guy to first figure out how to free No Free Lunge wouldnt try to lead it because it wasn't "trad" to do so after top roping it. Of course now "trad" is more of a "put down" of others than a set of standards. The "Trad" standard of free climbing was start at the bottom work your way up and then lower and pull your rope when you fall. Most climbers find this style far too restrictive but it was certainly the traditional ideal when I started climbing and for a long time after that. Previewing, hanging, cleaning (on aid or via rap) is it cheating? It sure isn't "trad" free climbing style. By the way don’t read this post as a criticism of anyone or the routes as climbs.

Umm Mr. Granite weren't you going to call me the other day?

An insane amount of new routes and crags. Some of the best crag routes in Leavenworth have come into existence since VK's last guide. I’ve always loved the Smith Rock guide and think it is one of the best but given the huge area Viktor covers and the large variety of crags I think Viktor’s is the best in the NW. Buy it right after you get your Index T-shirt!

More to consider..... P1 Godzilla 5.9 P2 Gold bar Girls 5.9+ (if too dirty do p2 City Park) P3 Klaus Von Bulow 5.10b (short crux at the start) TR p3 J Gardens 5.11 fingers

It’s about 65 miles from Index to Leavenworth. Average automobile operating expense/mile is ~$.154. (link )Total marginal car expense when you choose to climb at Leavenworth over Index is ~$20.00.

Must be a new thing! ;-)

Here's Mastadon's fa'ist just last summer on some nearby roofs: sorry pics didnt work! and here's one stolen from Supertopo (taken by an ex Seattle guy) This thread just needed more pictures

Nice! Last time I talked to Drew I was inspired by his enthusiasm. Although I can remember when you were the young kid on the block!

Perhaps we just evaluate "complicated" against a different standard.. We both agree on what I bolded in red so I wonder just why you feel badly for me. If I did value climbing and taking out the trash equally just why would that be bad? Let me clarify: I find climbing much more enjoyable than taking out the trash. I do not find the act of climbing itself to be more artful than taking out the trash. What I have found most enjoyable about climbing is experiencing things for myself, trying different things out and creating my own tradition so to speak. While I haven’t discovered anything particularly unique or earth shattering the process of discovering that tradition is what I value most about climbing. Following other peoples values and preferences to avoid the “routine” – I guess that means low value - experience is the opposite of producing a work of art but more than that it limits the range of experiences available. In some sense I value the process over the outcome. I find most of the discussions of climbing as art to be more artifice than art – “art” is simply a tool to justify sorting individual experiences a hierarchy from low value to high value.

Hell just do what most inspires you...climbing just aint that complicated and it's no more of an "art" than taking out the trash. If your route is truly new and has no history then tradition shouldn't matter, although you might decide getting along is better than swimming against the stream.....

Thanks for the info Max.....I've climbed a fair bit in the area - just not at the TR crag - and always found the rock less than stellar. The area you describe at least from afar seems to be lacking the bands of rotten rock that plague the nearby cliffs. These bands are easily seem in the pic below:

Max - I can't see Youtube at work, but I am assuming you are talking about the "Potholes" cliff that's in Smoot's guide (and others as well) It sure looks great but I've never walked over to check it out. What's the anchor situation like -just bring a standard rack and a few full length slings? Is the rock less friable than the nearby cliffs?

That's the route Andy. Isn't Moon kinda cold (ie in the shade) this time of year? That's the spot. I would love to find the 90' Wall of Washington!

OW - You misunderstood. I was suggesting Woodson is great! Just a bit short on vertical quantity in places much like the "alpine" crag I posted.

It's a rare crag that has all the elements.

OW You're missing several things... 1) It's quality not quantity. Have you forgotten your Mt Woodson heritage? 2) It's "alpine" top roping! Quite a bit different from "lowland" top roping.

This would be sweet except you got to climb a route to get to the top...so it's out of the running. Minnehaha is an amazing place....well worth the drive from Seattle. OW - Do you remember if you can scramble (easily) to the top of the Golf Course rock at Banks?

Ah I Forgot about that Southern (Tenino) gem! I haven't been there since the 90's. Looks like the accomodations have been improved. 75' is the PERFECT TR length!

So far the Wa top ten look pretty weak.....here's some inspiration!

I was thinking that the Jig Saw wall would be good if you could get to the anchors easily.