Ibex

I just checked outside to be sure, and freeclimb9 was correct, the sky is not falling, but lucky for us, the snow finally is. Peace my friend, I am not trying to use this as a forum for advancing my ego, rather I am trying to positively contribute to the body of climbing knowledge by sharing the information I have found. I did not know about the cycle tests performed by BW, but I must say the hypothesis you draw regarding loosely woven cord more resembling webbing is an intuitive one. You are right that they did not specify the radius of edge that they flexed the cord over, and they commited a statistical "no-no" with this particular test of using a sample size of one. I dont see this paper as an "end all" trestise on the topic, complete with 100% statistical reproducibility. Here is what I think it does show: (be forewarned this is just IMHO ) - The fatigue properties of these materials IS important. You mention that b/c we load things over carabiners, not sharp edges we cant take anything from this. I disagree. The forces applied in the real world are much heavier than the token 40 lb (i'll assume mass ) hung off of them in the Moyer test. Granted this is comparing apples and oranges, but they are still fruit. The IS significant indication that the fatigue properties for techy cords are poorer than their nylon counterparts, even in the more loosely woven techy cords. I did not say throw them in the trash can, but I think there is "significant indication" -The drop test looks at the worst case scenario of a nasty whipper, statically held, and a directional through the belay. You are correct that it mainly validates the strength of the static tests. The point that I think it (and the graph above it) illustrate (I didnt say prove) is that even when the cord is brand new, and you are using some fatty ancient 11mm rope that doesnt stretch much, and belaying through the anchor, it is "plausible" to break several of these with repeated high impact force falls. Note the combination of rising impact forces, and belaying through the anchor. These factors are tested separately here, but it is plausable to *infer* the effects of both when combined. Which is that several of these would break. -Another VERY important area is the knot efficiencies. Because of techy-cord's high strength, some people have tried making their own webolette style; single strand cord with 2 figure-8 knots in the ends. This test shows that this is ludicrous ,given the poor knot efficiency, with some of these cords. If you download the data, from his webiste, he DOES publish the individual data points, mean, AND stdev. -Now if you think these tests are "unrealistic of what would ever happen in the real world" you are right. BUT(!), so are UIAA drop tests!!! The idea is to look at the worst case scenario (or even beyond it), set a standard, and then we can sleep better at night because we know we will never stress our gear as harshly as theses tests do. ALL they are trying to do is "set the bar" so to speak in terms of cordelete performance. Dont dismiss it because you think it is a bit unrealistic. -I dont know anything about the BW test back in the day, but the folks who ran this test are industry professionals. Harmston is the BD quality assurance manager (with a LOT of research experience), and Moyer has done extensive testing on several other rescue related topics. They are probably just as qualified as the folks that BW had on staff running their tests a few years back. So what's the point...? Nobody is infalible, and these guys arent complete idiots. Even if you don't like all of their methodology, there is still a lot to be learned from their study; even if you feel it is redundant and of lesser quality or applicability than the BW study. -If you want to help improve the populous understanding of this issue, post up the BW test info. All I am trying to do is share what I have found. If you have some ideas, write them up, be polite, and post them. I'll be glad to listen to what you have to say. -If you aren't a cordelete/webolete fan, that's fine Many people arent. The fact of the matter is that a LOT of people are, and this is important information that pertains to them. Everyone has to make a PERSONAL decision regarding the levels of safety they wish to maintain while practicing the sport. We must make decisions with imperfect information. This paper illustrates some things (and proves others) and only serves to better climbers' understanding of their equipment and make educated choices. Saying "Beware of Spectra Cordelete" is like saying "Beward of Dog". Its no guarantee that you are going to get bit, simply a bit of information you might not pick up from simply looking at rover and guessing what his disposition is. I need one of these Cheers Shawn [ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ]

Hey folks, I posted this in the "Cordelete Retirement" a few days ago, but I thought it was important enough to give it its own thread. If you use spectra, or any of the high strenght techy 5.5mm cords for cordelete, you NEED to read this. Give a read to: http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/High_Strength_Cord.pdf Pay special attention to: 1) Fatigue life tests 2) Drop tests Kudos to Moyer et al. who put this paper together. [ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ]

Hey, For all of those who are thinking of using spectra/kevlar/vectran/aramid/technora/etc cord for cordelletes, you ABOLUTELY MUST!!! read this article first. <A HREF="http://www.fishproducts.com/tech/High_Strength_Cord.pdf">Article</A>. Pay particularily close attention to: A) the fatigue test b) drop tests I am buying 7mm nylon and saving my pennies for something other than spectra cordelletes Shawn [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ] alright, i am a god damned idoit and cant get the html link to work.... [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ]

Hey, What is the exercise known as a "good morning"? Cheers

[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ]

Freeclimb, I agree with you up to this point: quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: The folks at BD use "lbf" as a unit of mass, and there's 2.2 of em per kilogram. So, Tommy Chandler at BD said the head on cobras often holds with 5,000lbf on it (i.e. 2272 kg, or 22kN --that's kN-kiloNewton, or 1000 Newtons),). The "f" in lbf means 'force' not mass. You can't use mass to break something. You use FORCE to break something. lbf has units of displacementxmass per sec ^2 (ft-lb) and when spoken is commonly said as "suchandsuch pound-feet of force" to ensure that people know it is a force not a mass. You cant go (english force) to (metric mass) to (metric force) the quantities are just not the same. You can only go (english force) to (metric force). Either way, as long as we all stay on Earth, its no big conceptual leap to think of mass vs. force being applied to (or hung off of) something One really good point you brought up is the different coefficients of thermal expansion of CF and steel. I suspect that the steel would restrain the CF from shinking-expanding so much, but doing so would only add addtional stresses to the joint. I am not sure how the BD engineers got around that. Another interesting point you bring up is the end to end pull test, vs pick loading test. Loading the pick (force applied via a lever arm) is going to stress the tool much differently than a ordinary pull test. I am curious if that is also a part of the CE testing. The BD guy only mentioned the pull test, but intuition would think that CE would require a pick load test. Is any of the data from Craig Luebben's testing on the web? Good points my friend. Shawn [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ] [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ]

quote: Originally posted by texplorer: A gear store. . . in Ames, Iowa???? Do you guys have alot of killer ice around there? Long story, but I am not currently in Iowa, I am in upstate New York waiting for the weather to turn cold so I can do some ice climbing up in the Aidirondacks. It is little known, but the 'daks' have a pleatora of ice routes. It is a naturally occuring Ouray up there. Granted mother nature doesnt plant routes in the same concentration as there is in Ouray, but there is a fantastic amount of ice in northern NY. The only downside is that the weather is not as reliably cold. I used to work at the gear shop in Ames IA, and now that I am temporarily in NY, I am working at another shop up here. I lived in Portland OR this summer, which is how I got hooked on CC.com. Lambone, worked with a bud of mine name Tim, also a prisoner...er student at Iowa State Univ. The closest ice to Ames IA is Minneapolis MN, or across the Wisconsin border (both about 4 hours drive). There are some silos turned climbing gyms in Illinois, and they DO put up a 120ft ice wall in the winter, but the season is pretty short. Shawn

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Ibex ]

quote: Originally posted by Lambone: Thats my opinion, but I would be interested to hear if anyone thinks otherwise. I love talking about this techy B.S. Spray gets old quick... [ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Lambone ] Lambone, I agree with you 100% on the spray I am an Industrial Engineering student and one of the area's I am most interested in is Quality Control, statistical methods applied to engineering and manufacturing. So in regards to the testing methodology posted above: quote: then take it outside and beat it against then curb 150 times each on the pick and hammer, then bring it back inside and perform the standard CEN test for all ice tools, at which point all other tools on the market would be begging for mercy. This includes a three point bend, and pulling out of the pick-like you would on a climb, and lastly we try to pull the head off- which usually breaks the shaft or shuts the machine down at over 5000 lbf. I know of very few, if any, tools that can withstand this kind of punishment. Then, every tool in the batch is tested end to end to 1000 lbs. I cant say it is terribly great testing method: -There is a lot of room for tester bias in how hard they are hitting it against the curb (human operator getting tired, Big Bubba tests Mon, Wed, Fri and Lil' Suzie test on Tue and Thur). -how long it takes them (ie. the tool is presumably warming up during this time). -150 whacks on the pick and 150 whacks on the hammer/adze is representative of only about a half-day to a day of climbing. -They only have a sample size of one. BAAAAADDD! Now, to their credit, testing is extremely expensive (especially destructive testing of $300 ice tools) and climbing gear is NOT a high-profit margin enterprise (trust me, i work in a gear shop). Also, think of it this way, they are doing all of that abuse *BEFORE* doing the CE tests (which assume it passes) so really they are simulating what we might hope our battle-scared tools might do in the field. In an ideal world you could easily automate this test, remove the bias, and then model what a tool that is 1 year old, 3 years old, etc will do. YOu could even incorporate UV degredation, impacts, repeated loading (fatigue), etc. Keep in mind though, you as a consumer are going to have to pay for all of this. Who here hasn't already gasped when they looked at the price tag of a new BD Cobra....? Additionally, modern quality assurance is more than just an ad hoc test of a few pieces as the stuff rolls out the door. It is a comprehensive program from vendor selection (I am confident BD doesnt make its own glue or CF), and qualification, product and process design, manufacturing methods and technology, metrology, statistical process control, and finally, yes, they do break shit to validate what they knew from all of the previous steps. So dont be too quick to judge a process, just by looking at one small step (ie. how they break stuff), and ignore the big picture. The rest of it is VERY important in determining the outgoing quality of the product. As for you folks who are arguing the point of lb-mass (lb) vs lb-force (lbf), it is a moot point as long as you stay on earth. That aside, he SAYS in the quote above (read it carefully), that the "testing machine shuts down at 5000 lbf" <--- note units!!! In regards to whether or not you should trust the glued joints, I give them a thumbs up. As someone mentioned above, modern adhesives are FANTASTICALLY strong. In fact, the reason most glue joints fail, is not because the glue failed, but rather the material being glued failed (fiberglass broken, above). It is common practice to use glue that is much stronger than the material being bonded to ensure that joint is only limited in strength by the materials being bonded. Keep in mind this places significant importance on the gluing technique, surface preparation, cleanliness, etc to take advantage of miraculous glues (reference above where we discussed the importance of evaluating the entire process). In my personal opinion the rivets on the old BD BP's etc where simply a form of 'procedural insurance'. As far as the idea of using the tools to back up a sketchy belay. It can't hurt. It will probably help, clip through the hole in the head if possible, and no they werent designed to do that. Questions, comments, winning lotto tickets...? Cheers Shawn "Friends dont let friends climb on CM"- sorry, I am biased...

I always receive a cordial invitation from Cavey to join, but I havent figured out how...? Cheers Shawn PS hey Cpt Caveman, what did you end up getting for ice tools. I am loving your BD BP's

You should be able to just take a file to it. It wont hurt to try. YOu will figure out really quick if the file is removing metal. I bet you a Guinness it works just fine. If it doesnt work, you can do the dremel trick CAREFULLY!!

Does anybody know about an Ice Fest in Orient Bay (Nipigon, Ontario) this year? Shawn

quote: Originally posted by Klickitat: BD Black Prophets 1 Straight shaft-hammer 1 bent shaft-adzewith leashes Great Shape$250 might be willing to split pair How much would you sell just the straight shaft one for? Shawn sdhigbee@iastate.edu

Hey, Anybody got a X15 or old BD BRS, or BD BP with a straight shaft and a hammer they want to sell? I am looking for a thrid tool that takes picks compatablie with my BD BP's. Cheers Shawn sdhigbee@iastate.edu

quote: Originally posted by max: 4. As an analyst, I can't help but take offense at the claim "The heating element can keep pumping 105 F of warmth to you for five hours. . . " Everybody nows "105 F of warmth" is not a quantity (it's a rate) and therefor can not be pumped. Max, What the heck kind of analyst are you? 3 Credits of suffering in any engineering thermodynamics course will demonstrate that temperature (ie. numbers with the letter 'F' behind them) are a relative measure of thermal energy. Temperature has nothing to do with the rate of energy influx or loss of a system. It just describes the instantaneous amount of thermal energy a system has. TNF should bring out an ad that says: " our jacket will deliver an astounding 18.6 Watts of energy to your torso, enabling you to clip that bolt you would have otherwise been to chilled to reach, and take lots of pretty summit pics with our logo in it" Calm down sport climbing fans, I was just kidding. Happy tuesday everyone. I am off to Thermo. ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will. [This message has been edited by Ibex (edited 10-23-2001).]

Hey all, I had to leave the bountiful PNW and I am selling my guidebook. It is the one by Tim Olson, slightly used, no missing pages or anything. It can be found at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1187472761&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1000225694&indexURL=0&rd=1

it is only a month old, I'll sell it for $20. they normally are $30 Shawn sdhigbee@iastate.edu ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will.

Westcliff CO is THE place to be if you want most of the PNW's climbing, but more solitude and lower cost of living. Right at the foot of the sangre de christo range http://www.sangre-de-cristo.com/westcliffe/index.htm ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will.

Matt, A late-ish start is how we bagged it last sunday. We got there around 10 and started walking at 10:45am. We took our sweet time as we got close to the base of the tooth, as we could see a small armada of gumbies on the 2nd belay ledge. When we finally got to the base of the route we waited another 1-1.5 hrs to start b/c of the log-jam of "seattle based non-profit, instructional organization" group of 7 f_cking idiots, along with a few other couples. summited around 6pm-ish and got back to the car around 8:30. Moral of the story: should have left LATER. Shawn ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will.

Neri, Three of us tried to do the Park Glacier this past weekend (11-12 Aug) and got skunked. The weather was fantastic, but the impending crevasses got the better of us. Basically we got to the towers (campbell towers?) about 2miles past Camp Kiser, close to the base of the Rainbow Glacier. What we saw above made us turn back without going any further... It was a *massive* field of un-navigable crevasses above that point, with 3 huge uncrossable crevasse systems. Then the coup de grace was the shrund which (through the binocs) looked like you could hide 3 or 4 busses in it no problem (and there was nowhere to traverse and go around it). The route is IMHO unpassible unless you want to do it 'seige style' and take about a week to get through the glaciers. My recommendation is to forget about the Park/Rainbow Glaciers until next May. Give me a shout if you have any more specific ???. ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will.

My coup de grace was on Devils Tower. My buddy and I climbed it on a remarkably deserted day (only 4 climbers on the *entire* tower) in May 2000. Anyway, we get to the last pitch (4th class to the summit) and I felt the dreaded: "rumblerumblerumblerumble...." So when I got on top, of this very visible national monument and sacred Native American landmark, the only thing I could think to do was roll back the biggest rock I could move and do the deed. Then came the quandry of TP.... Needless to say, I rapped down the route with a newly converted tank-top. ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will.

Clog is a pretty popular brand of gear in the UK. It is their "price point" (read: cheap but serviceable) in the British and European market. I would think of it a lot like Omega Pacific. Their products are not flashy, not the lightest, nor the most refined. They are however functional, (usually) pretty durable and a good value when you consider how much they cost. If you were a gear snob, you would turn your nose and run to get the shiniest BD Camalot made; if you are frugal you would whip out your REI Visa card and order the whole set. If you are pretentious enough to use Petzl gear, you need therapy. Happy Wednesday everybody ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will.

I was toying with buying a pair of BD BP's (bent) to use for all-around alpine/waterfall and get a straight shaft BD Shrike as a 3rd tool. I really love the BP's and I am not trying to debate their merits vs. other tools (as this has been covered to death in other threads). What I am curious about is other people's opinion of this combination. I see the pro/cons as the following: Pro's -evertyhing uses the same pick/wrenches etc -I can use the straight shrike and one BP on more moderate terrain than is called for by 2 bent tools Cons -A shrike is heavier than a lot of other 3rd tool options -it will cost a little more to go this route. I am also trying to decide if I should get the shrike with hammer or adze. I know the BP comes with a sweet big adze, and the shrike a puny one, but I might end up using the 3rd tool as a quasi-mnt axe (with alaska pick) then I thought I would be better to go with the adze. Any thoughts....? ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will. [This message has been edited by Ibex (edited 08-03-2001).]

Anybody done the west ridge or East Ridge Direct on Forbidden lately? What are the conditions like right now? thanks! ------------------ Put a high price on your own head, or rest assured, no one else will.

Dru, In this sense we are refering to a dynamic fall as any load that is not gently settled onto an anchor. ie. daisy off to a piece, climb up 2 ft, peel, and you take a 4 foot 'dynamic' fall. [This message has been edited by Ibex (edited 07-24-2001).]