Dwayner

Hey Petey...nice poll. To be fair....YOU can only vote once and don't be calling all your friends. Part of your confusion is that I actually presented two issues simultaneously.....sport-bolting (an environmental issue) and hang-dogging/rehearsal (a stylistic issue). They are separate, although related issues. What do they have in common? Both, in my opinion, are dubious manifestations of sport-climbing. The former is an issue because sport-climbing is bolt-dependent. The latter, of secondary importance, is stylistic. You're probably old enough to know that before sport-climbing became popular, that hang-dogging was considered poor-form. It meant that you weren't up for the route. Get strong and come back when you're ready. The first is a major issue to the point where bolting has actually been banned here and there. The second issue is a matter of personal choice, but in poor form in my opinion. The "legitimacy" of widespread indiscriminate bolting behavior along with what I consider to be dubious stylistic issues, were imported as part of the sport-climbing ethos. You might say, "adapt to progress", but I don't really consider it progress. RUMR...you want to bring pope into this discussion???? He's an even bigger wise-acre than me!!!!!!!! I'm bitchy???? How long have you been involved with cc.com.????.....I'm relatively well-behaved compared to a good bit of this crowd!

And RUMR again: "he doesn't have respect for other people's opinions on what they consider "fun" and has to take lame potshots..." Sure I do! Do you really expect me and others to agree with or like everything you find fun? I might not agree with your opinion but that doesn't mean I dismiss your right to have one! Gee whiz! Bouldering.....nothing wrong with that as long as the vegetation isn't mangled or petroglyphs destroyed, etc. I just think, personally, that a lot of it is goofy and a waste of (my ) time. Do it all you want, pal.....and throw in one of them wild 'n wacky sit-starts for your buddy Dwayner. Just my opinion.

RUMR..."Get a life" is rude, man. You have NO idea what a life I have! ERIK...I THOUGHT THIS CC.COM WAS ABOUT DISCUSSION OF IDEAS....WHETHER ENVIRONMENTAL, ETHICAL OR STYLISTIC ONES. RIGHT?? EVEN [shudder]UNPOPULAR ONES. YOU'RE A MODERATOR, YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT. IT'S A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN OTHER PERSPECTIVES. I AM QUITE CONVINCED THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY THOSE NEW TO CLIMBING, REALLY AREN'T AWARE OF MANY OF THE ISSUES. AT THE LEAST, ONE MIGHT SAY THAT BY READING THESE EXCHANGES, A FEW PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE GAINED AN UNDERSTANDING OF ANOTHER VIEWPOINT ON THE SUBJECT, WHETHER THEY AGREE WITH ME OR NOT. SOME PEOPLE HERE REACT AS IF I OWN ALL THE CLIMBING AREAS AND WRITE ALL THE LAWS AND CAN BAN YOU FROM DOING THINGS I THINK ARE WEAK. COME ON! NO SUCH LUCK! - Dwayner

A SIMMON'S GALLERY....for Mr. G. Timmy Not only can Mr. Simmons "sweat to the oldies", he can lift them too! Not since the Grateful Dead played in front of the Great Pyramid has such a phenom. occurred in this ancient land. Sorry I missed it. One request: Richard....bring peace to the Middle East....I know you can do it! See if you can spot Richard in this crowd. Hint: he's inconspicuously hiding between the first and second row of seats. I know what you're thinking.....it's all pink hot-pants and sequined tank tops...you know, all the glamorous stuff.....wrong! think again! sometimes I have to dress up a bit convervatively for those special occasions. Away! Away! There's too many of you! I give and give and give some more! What about MY needs???? Thinking 'o you, Timmy!

RUMR writes: "SO...My question to you is: "should i be forbidden from working a route that is "over" my head? What if i find that fun? To get on something, get completely shut down, go through a process to figger it out, and then do it w/ no falls?" And i still have no where claimed to be a "5.13" climber, or any other level at that..." Dude...where do you think you live????? Who's going to forbid you from such a thing???? Freedom rings because you have the right to dangle and thrash all you want! And I have the right to think it's weak.

Petey now resorts to his old, mean self accompanied by the use of the word "bullshit"....how articulate. I thought you were more sophisticated. Frankly, this "discussion" is starting to bore me even more than the boring work I am required to do for which I thought this might be an occasional distraction. I'll tell you what, sparky, I'll do the gentlemanly thing and blame this on my inability to write and fully express myself rather than on the inability of you and your fellow sporty's to fully comprehend my points, although the latter is clearly the case. - Dwayner

Petey wrote: "I can agree with your concerns about the former [bolts] but as for the latter I can only say get a life! If someone hangdogs a route, pulls on every piece, flashes, or free solos a route my only concern for them is that I hope they have a safe and enjoyable climb." Au contraire, mon frere. "Get a life" is an insult. I don't care if you or anyone else hang-dogs...just don't tell me you're really up for the route or a "5.13" or whatever climber if you require that. - Dwayner

No disrespect or unkindness intended, my friend, but the last place I'd seek personal advice regarding such a choice is from a bunch of anonymous chumps on a climbing internet site, myself included. The issue is really between you, your girlfriend and your other friends. They are the people whom your decision will impact and these are the ones you might choose to consult. Or some very trusted friends. good luck.

How about it's environmental relevance? Furthermore...I would hardly call "Dreamer" a sport-climb. I recall widely-spaced bolts that seemed to have been placed with discretion and a lot of crack! Additionally, whether or not I've climbed a thousand sport-routes or none, it doesn't detract from the fundamental issues. Erik must think this is a personal hypocricy debate rather than an issues discussion.

But, but, but..... I would hardly call that sport climbing though. I doubt many, if any sportos would either. Yes, and I recognize it for what it is......aid climbing....and probably half of those bolts on Monkey Face should go.

Sport climbing is utterly bolt-dependent so it's not enviro-friendly.

Petey....I just figured out what part of your problem is.....you didn't read my sentence the way it was intended. I wrote: "It's not about whether or not trad, clean gear is easy to place." Notice the comma. as in "trad [and] clean" gear. I never said, "Clean gear is easy to place.". That would be a ridiculous statement. In fact, there are plenty of examples of bolted climbs next to cracks because the cracks are hard to protect trad while free-climbing. So, the climb is dumbed down with bolts. Read.....more ....carefully. - Dwayner

Petey say: "hmm so I can bolt all I want if I "shred" the route quickly. But I must say thatI find excessive bolts ugly regardless of how long people work on a route. Dwayner, this quotes makes me realize just how far removed you are from real climbing as opposed to armchair pontificating. clean gear is easy to place That is simply not always true. Placing clean gear can be an art - one that is difficult to learn. If your missing this, think about what else you are missing! " Huh???? Petey...your comments above clearly demonstrate that you didn't understand what I was saying. As far as me being "far removed"...that's sheer ignorance. I've been climbing actively for 30 years (both professionally and recreationally) and have been aware of the various issues throughout this time, and continue to be very much involved in the activity. - Dwayner

The same issues apply except for the destruction of the rock. Top-roping is environmentally superior to drilling and clipping closely-placed bolts. On a relative scale, it's even less scary than sport-climbing unless you have to go for a big swing. But unlimited rehearsals by Richard Simmons and others can produce the results already described whether on top-rope, sport or trad. Hang-doggin on trad (removable) protection is not a part of the traditional ethic although it seems that some people do it as the stylistic trad standards have been dumbed down too. (But tradsters are ideally removing their refuse when they're done.) The month-long 60 ft. 5.14 goes hand in hand with sport-climbing and it's gratuitous use of bolts.

Petey.say: "Dumbed-down, eh? Hell yes I say weenie route! Compared to such routes as Twilight Zone - Oh wait now that's been "dumbed down" too. Damn all my impressive feats of yesterday are being dumbed down! These young guns will never be impressed." Dwayner say: The issue at its core has to do with excessive use of PERMANENT anchors followed by unlimited rehearsal to wire climbs that would otherwise be way over your head. It's not about whether or not trad, clean gear is easy to place. "Did you clip pre-placed gear? Did you leave all your stuff in the crack for the next guy?" Petey say: "Nope but I never once worried about pro or the fall something I have worried about on sport routes." Dwayner comments: The issue isn't about having to worry or not, although sport climbs seem to attract people because of that factor. "Did you hang all over it because it was too hard for you?" Petey say: Mea Culpa But I went back to shred it. (See bit about it being a weenie route above). Dwayner replies: Yah...."shredded"! - Dwayner

Dumbed-down, eh? Did you clip pre-placed gear? Did you leave all your stuff in the crack for the next guy? Did you hang all over it because it was too hard for you?

"I say it's put-up or shut-up time. You redpoint a 5.13 sport route of RuMr's choice and I'll give you $100. Anyone else who wants to see Dwayner prove his claim that anyone can climb 5.13 sport, by demonstrating that he can climb 5.13 sport, make a pledge and sweeten the pot. " a) your challenge is intellectually immature. ("Put up or shut up".....I haven't heard that much since high school, John Wayne!. I say, "grow up".) b) I have NO doubts that I could do such a thing (and if not, I could probably pull some anonymous healthy punk off the street and if properly compensated, could get the guy going.) However, I HAVE A LIFE, and have no interest in wasting it on rehearsing a bolted sport-climb, the very existence of (sport-climbs) which I find dubious. It would probably take me quite awhile to get my fingers strong and a few weeks to wire the moves, but I have no doubts. Others on this board could do it much quicker while others might take weeks or months longer. Did you even understand the point, Sparky? You'd have to raise the challenge to make it worthwhile to pay for my wasted time over, say, four months....that's be about $25,000, and even then, I would have a hard time justifying the WASTE OF TIME!!!

Brother Gaper.....at this point, no one is stopping anybody from being lame. However, if I were the property owner at Vantage....I would shut the place down and sue the climbers responsible for the grid-bolting, requiring that they restore the area.

RUMR.....maybe I can, maybe I can't....you don't know me, and that's not the issue. I can have an opinion on the subject even if I'm confined to a wheelchair.

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!" Sport-climbing is a "dumbing down" of rock-climbing. By creating routes dependent upon closely-spaced bolts, not only do you degrade the rock, you bring it down to your own level. (Consider, for example, the famous Dan's Dreadful Direct" incident of a couple of years ago...it was thought to be too dangerous for the average Joe to protect so they bolted it.). "But Dude!", you say. What about all those heinous unprotectable faces and such?" Dwayner says.....bolt them very sparingly on the lead if your conscience will allow you to morally justify it (e.g. many climbs at Peshastin) or preferably not, top-rope them, or leave them alone. (Vantage would have been a lot better off if people had kept to trad-climbing the cracks and top-roping the unprotectable faces.....today it is a tragic embarrassment.) Something else: if you're falling all the time....it's probably too hard for you. Change the "rules" allowing unlimited hang-dogging and rehearsal of the moves and personal time-sacrifices and YOU TOO can be a 5.13+ climber! Here's an example: This is Richard Simmons and his grandmother: Neither know how to play the piano today. Give them enough time to rehearse and musically hang-dog, and both Richard and Granny will eventually play a Beethoven sonata. Give them enough time to rehearse and hang-dog, and both Richard and Granny will eventually have the moves wired to climb a 5.13. I've met more than one individual newly introduced to climbing who after a week in the gym or Exit 38 tell me they climb 5.11. Give them a rack o'gear and point them in the direction of a Castle Rock 5.4 and they will shudder within a few feet from the ground. Who's climbing 5.11 now? "But hang-dogging makes me stronger!" I'm sure it does. So go do some pull-ups or even go to one of those obnoxious indoor gyms. At least the gyms are cognizant of being artificial! Do you guys leave your snacking garbage at the base of the climb when you leave for the day? Shouldn't your climbing ethic be to leave as little trace of your passing as possible? Shouldn't that include bolts as well, i.e. if they can be avoided by top-roping or not bolting at all? Isn't that a better thing? Shouldn't you be disgusted by grid-bolted atrocities like Vantage? "Although, why someone believes that what they do is the only way to do it, I'll never understand." Dude.....we think our way is better. You may disagree. No one is stopping you. America....what a country!

"How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??!" Exactly! You're starting to catch on!!

Is that the kind of sick lyrics or sham poetics that passes for the kind of music you listen to? Wretched and wrong. Seriously.

NOT SO!

Hey Cheapsters! Why don't you just buy the doggone annual pass and not worry about it. Money well-spent. Cheaper than going to dinner and a movie with your favorite girlie. $50 at the Park or $39.95 at REI. Look at this guy...he's very pleased with his purchase! BUY IT NOW!!! For yourself!!!