Dwayner

And while we're on the subject, Timmy, I kindly ask that you QUIT GAZING AT MY Thank you.

Here's something Gaper-Timmy DOES appreciate:

A little history lesson for y'all. Back in the day, not long after this whole pub-club thing started, way before Pube Club Dave got his nickname from his weekly exhuberance, back when there were folks with names like Dynamite, Jules and yes, even Caveman, in attendance....It was indicated that I was "out of line" when I noted that Tacoma was being dismissed in an agreed upon venue rotation. I was called A BIG BABY FOR FIGHTING OVER WHERE WE'RE GOING TO DRINK BEER!!!! Now, it is a weekly fight, even between venues in Ballard, AND IT'S NOW FOUR PAGES LONG!!!!! Here's your Pube-Club:

Timmy...thanks for posting the photo. Nice of you to share your house-guest with your cc.com buddies. Does he look that fresh and ready at breakfast? Richard's a great guy. (How do you hook up with all of these celebrities???) I still get E-mail from your pal Mickey Rooney! Here's a photo I took of him with one of the more notorious cc.com babes: Timmy....you......you.....uh....YOU ROCK!!!!

What a complete load of crap...a specious bunch of speculative cause and effect. I agree with ehmmic. One could argue that marriage allows the stability to concentrate on the work, rather than on "the hunt".

Someone say "pecker"?

Did a 5.13a this weekend.....I've got three unavailable witnesses in Oregon and some GPS data to prove it.

Erik....in my opinion, she did you a favor. Now go out there and get those hex's restrung!

Scoe: don't get your hopes up. We had a big discussion last night, me 'n c-bird, and I'm not sure if it's your shoe. First of all, it has a spiked heel. Secondly, it is a custom size 15. Thirdly, it was found in a dumpster behind the Tumwater Tavern.....c-bird was a bit confused from the suds and such....The shoe he actually found at the climbing area was his own....that's why he was complaining a bit about that climb.....when you wear socks the same color as your shoes, and you get a little excited to get going, sometimes things get lost in the details. Furthermore, I received a message last night from a certain "Larngo" that reads as follows: "Found lost climber shoe. Made fire. Cooked shoe and ate it. Shoe taste good. Saved tender laces for Muffy. Man want shoe back at pub club. Larngo hope it digest by then and will leave on floor next to beer table." - Larngo

JayB...really....what's your problem, masterfully-honed stud???? I think that little avatar picture of yours speaks for itself. I only have have a vague memory of meeting you briefly at some pub-club where you said, "hey I'm jayb...remember me?...we used to fight on the internet about bolts?...remember me" It would be interesting to see if we ever meet again if you are as big a punk in real life as you are proving yourself to be here. The other guys.....they're kinda of funny and clever; even Petey Puget sometimes. You are not. Good day....now go back to your cubicle.

Hey RUMR:

Add a couple more weeks for the yogurt and brown-rice diet, eh? You are a piece of work!!! I'll tell you what, Jay B.....save all of that "bet y'can't" money and see a counselor about your self-loathing attitude. I won't pitch in because some of the others around here in similar need might expect a similar handout. I don't know you, I don't know what you do for a living....all I can say is that......ah....never mind. Enjoy your life and abilities to the extent you will allow yourself to do so.

Self-defeatist Jay B. requires (hopefully) one last reply. Here he is! "You're just making things harder on yourself. Just admit that you have never climbed 5.13, cannot climb 5.13, and never will climb 5.13 and this will all go away." Dwayner: Have I ever climbed "5.13"? no. Can I do one right now, today?.....highly unlikely, especially with my temporary injury.....might I do so if I adopted the sport-climbing tactics of unlimited rehearsal? I think so. Dwayner: Question for J.B. (Doesn’t require an answer in writing as I think I’ve heard it twice already.) Did you read the last post? I gave you the benefit of the doubt last time and assumed you were probably a cool cat trying to catch a bit of the action. Now, I’m convinced you’re just another jackass who likes to listen to himself. Let me spell it out for you....... a) when you speak of abilities or potential, keep your own, self-limiting prognostications to yourself, sports-star. b) if or when I waste my time hang-dogging to climb a 5.13. I’LL LET YOU KNOW. c) I don’t require your juvenile locker-room bet. I mentioned earlier that the only way you MIGHT get some action out of me on YOUR timetable is if you compensate me for my salary and expenses for wasting my time. j.B.“You're just making things harder on yourself...Admit that you have never....and it will all go away.” Dwayner: Sounds like school-yard taunting...or a North Korean re-education camp!! J.B.: “Red-pointing a legitimate 5.13, like running a sub 11 second 100 Meter Dash, is a standard that very few will ever realize.” Very, very poor analogy with the running. Apples and oranges...5.13 is becoming more and more common all the time! Rehearse the moves over and over and over again and it should be possible for many people. I remember when they used to say the same stuff about 5.11! And wait till the shoes get even stickier. JayB“Me saying that I'll probably never climb hard enough to 5.13 represents a realistic assessment of the level of drive and talent that I bring to the sport - and a due appreciation of the true nature of the difficulty involved. When you claim that red-pointing a 5.13 sport route represents a trivial accomplishment that you could duplicate fairly easily,..” Dwayenr: Dude....I never said it was trivial nor that it could be done fairly easily. It could take me weeks of rehearsal or longer. I stated that I believed it could be done by lots of folks, including myself, if one is allowed unlimited rehearsal ala the sport-climbing ethos. Feel free to "realistically assess" your own personal limitations and levels of drive and talent, but imposing them on others (including those whom you do not even know), at least to me, is very sad. Jay thinks Jay can’t, so Jay probably won’t, and you won't either. If you ever have to deal with kids, I hope that you will NEVER advise them in such a way. “you are talking shit, plain and simple.” Very articulate, young man. You and your buddies can take your checks for that “big money”, use them to buy some beer and chips, and then sit around and talk about the stuff you don’t think you are capable of doing, or maybe the good old days when your high school football team had a winning streak. Hey Bro. Dru! Thanks for spelling out some of the options....I prefer the short bouldering problem followed by the 5.11 stretch. Or the 25 ft. route that’s a sequence problem. I’ll let you know when it happens. See you at Jack’s Canyon! Petey P. Say: “I do think that .13 is within many climbers ability.” Dang! Me ‘n ole Petey actually agree on something! - Dwayner

Mr. Jay....I tried to be nice but you're wearing on me: Jay say: "Most people- including myself - couldn't climb 5.13 even if doing so was their sole object in life. If someone is climbing hard 12's when climbing is merely a past-time then perhaps their claims that they could redpoint 5.13 if only they had enough time would have some credibility. If Dwayner heads down to Smith next weekend and sends some 12's then perhaps his claims would be worth something, but in the absence of any such evidence, they deserve the ridicule that they are getting. " Speak for yourself and your own perceived personal limitations, dude. As I said in my previous post (and I won't impose any limitations on your ability to read or comprehend), I'll do whatever on my own terms....not yours, or anybody elses, and I'll let you know when it happens. Until then, have some dignity, man. Just as you are confident that I am incapable, I am confident that you are more capable that you probably realize. If you've got your mind shut to the possibilities, there's a good chance you'll never achieve it. - Dwayner

MattP....I'm surprised you've even involved yourself in this. Either my original points was/were lost to you and others or you just want to hear some more? Jay B says: "If doing so is as trivial as you have claimed, it shouldn't take you very long at all to do so. I personally think that the real reason that you've declined to even try is that you'll get shut down cold, every time, no matter how hard you try. I'd be willing to bet that you could dedicate every remaining moment of your life to the task and never even come close." First of all, don't even think you can speak for my motivations. Secondly, what a horrible thing to say to someone you don't even know! That's like me saying to you, no matter how much you try, Jay, you'll never be smart, clever or well-educated, no matter how long you live. What a foolish statement that would be! I'll tell you what....when the time comes when I am bored enough and rich enough to afford to go out and hang-dog incessently for a month or however long it takes, I'll let you know. I'll call Richard Simmons and see if he'll belay me with a GRI-GRI!!! By the way...I never said it wouldn't take long, I just said that it could be done. Even by you and even by MattP and I venture a good many people reading this. If you lack confidence in your own potential...that's your problem. IF YOU'VE GOT THE TIME AND MONEY, PROVE TO ME THAT I'M RIGHT! I've pretty much said what I have to say...unless you dogs wish to continue to bait and chew! ahoy! - Dwayner

Petey just can't quit! Petey's attempt at humor: "I have thought about your posts for years from a variety of perspectives, and frankly, I haven't heard any new viewpoints that would come even close to sway my basic conviction which is (and I say this sadly and I mean that most seriously) the primary point of any of your diatribes is a desire to put the other down! Any argument comes second." a) I suppose I first logged into this hell-hole two years ago. Don't remember, or care, when I first ran into Petey. b) your analysis of my intentions and motivations is wrong, as usual. It's been said before...your attempts at pop-psychoanalysis are pathetic. I thought this was over.....you really want to go at it again?????

And from the same "PLANET FEAR" web-site, we have more, earth-shattering news!!!!!! "We have just had it confirmed that Dalvinder Sodhi has made the first female ascent of one of Britain's most famous boulder problems : Brad Pit. Using the cunning heel-hook method she did the problem in only six attempts, in one day. The problem was inititally climbed using an extremely powerful dyno, and considered one of the very hardest moves in the country, it was only later that a more technical solution was found." What's next....the first female sit-start of the same??? Now THAT would be worthy of a web-site called "Planet Fear"!!!!! I'll be sure to watch CNN or the BBC tonight to see if it made the headlines.

Alpine K gotta throw himself into the mix! A.K: "Back at a Pub Club in Tacoma I remember a discussion MattP, Dwayner and I had regarding bolts. Now I'm pretty much a trad climber, but when I listen to Dwayner talk about bolts it's very obvious he is totally unwilling to even think about other points of view regarding bolting." Dwayner say: Hey amazing Kreskin...if you really think you have a grasp regarding how I or anyone else processes and evaluates information based on pub-club conversations, you need to share your knowledge with science...I think there might be a Nobel prize waiting for you. I have thought about these issues for years from a variety of perspectives, and frankly, I haven't heard any new viewpoints that would come even close to sway my basic convictions. When I do hear something new and profound, I'll let you know. A.K: "My advice to more reasonable folks out there is to ignore both Dwayner and Pope." Dwayner say: For someone who just suggested that I have a closed mind, YOU have just invited people to IGNORE me 'n pope, thus depriving them of making up their own minds. Go figger. A.K: "[Dwayner and pope] are both dinosaurs and they will turn to oil soon." Dwayner say: If my refusal to embrace sport-climbing makes me a dinosaur, then you may call me Dwayner rex (or anglicized, King Dwayner.) A.K: "And Dwayner if you really want to do something for the environment vote against GW next election." Dwayner say: I'll wait and see who runs against him.

Gee whiz! Aren't I popular! MattP say: "What do you have to say to my post, Dwayner? As I said, you have some good points to make about the proliferation of bolts and the dumbing down of climbing, but don't you recognize that few are going to listen to you while you preach from your pulpit about your complete contempt for the climbs and the climbing areas that probably 90% of today's climbers enjoy so much - and for the climbers themselves?" Dwayner: I've got my own style. You're entitled to your own opinion regarding its effectiveness. People can choose to agree, disagree; like me, dislike me. I'll make my points in my own way. MattP say: "Don't you think it is a little absurd to proclaim, as you have so many times, that you too could climb 5.13 if you were willing to hangdog like those cowardly chumps that call themselves climbers these days?" Dwayner: My original comment was made "in theory" using the example of Richard Simmons and his grandma. You could change the numbers and such and my point would remain the same. Could I myself climb a 5.13 by such methods. I think so. And so could you. I am sure it would take me a long, long time of rehearsing, dangling and swinging but I don't think it's an unreasonable "accomplishment". As I've said previously, I'm more impressed by someone who can walk up to a 5.7, climb it nicely, and leave with little or no trace. Am I willing to attempt to dangle and swing for weeks to prove a point to a few mostly anonymous people on an internet forum? Practically speaking....nope.....neither got the time nor the interest. P.S....I never used the word "coward". ERIK....YOU STILL HAVEN'T ADDRESSED THE ETHICS OF PUBLICLY SPREADING RUMORS, IN THIS CASE, A FALSE AND NEGATIVE ONE. YOUR HYPOCRISY POINT IS WEAK...IF SUCH WAS THE CASE, ONLY VIRGINS COULD PREACH ABSTINENCE AND ONLY NON-SMOKERS COULD ADVOCATE ANTI-SMOKING. IT THEN BECOMES A PARADOX WHEN PEOPLE SAY, "DON'T KNOCK IT UNTIL YOU'VE TRIED IT", BUT AFTER YOU'VE TRIED IT, YOU ARE GUILTY AND "NO LONGER QUALIFIED TO HAVE AN OPINION". YES...I HAVE TRIED SPORT-CLIMBING. I DON'T CARE FOR IT....MADE ME FEEL KIND OF DIRTY. Petey, Petey, Petey! Petey say: “What has your discourse added to the debate?” Dwayner: It has been provocative and informative as several people have told me. I should ask you the same question as you seem to be nearly as wordy. Petey say:“...it did give you an opportunity to insult large classes of people and specific individuals such as myself.” Dwayner: If "large classes of people" are insulted because I don't care for sport-climbing and have strong opinions regarding it...so be it. I don't care for snowmobiling either....there....I insulted another "large class of people." Same goes for the Taliban. As for personal insults....I'm not going to get into a bitch-fight with you over who got personal first. Petey say: "The great revelation you have is: Sport climbing by its nature is bolt-dependent. Some of us think that bolts should at best be used sparingly if at all. I suggest you simply post those two sentences whenever you feel the need to enter the debate." Dwayner: Great idea! It can be the opening for your New Rock Climbing Forum! Petey say: "The difficult part of the debate is in getting people to work together and to consider other people perspectives for the betterment of all. Once in the chat room I encouraged you to write something telling what it was about trad climbing that inspired you rather than taking the low road of insult. Sadly you chose not to do this." Dwayner: I don't recall the conversation but I don't doubt that you made such a suggestion. Happily, I am true to myself. If there is any conclusion to be drawn from these recent exchanges, it is that Dwayner and Petey do not debate well with each other. Time to hose down the barking dogs before it gets too ugly as it has in the past. So Petey....if we're ever both in the same bar at the same time, and someone on the opposite side of the room sends you a beer and then holds up their own and winks.....it ain't me, it's some stranger at the next table. But I'll have one now... ..Here...I'll even get one for you... if you pay me back later. - Dwayner

That never happened. A couple of issues: a) even if I did, this is an issues debate, not a finger-pointing round of hypocricy accusations which is a seperate issues. Even if I used pins on every route I've ever climbed, you might consider me a poor example as a messenger, but the issues remain the same. Like a druggy telling people not to do dope. Is his message to be discounted because he does it himself? Maybe not the best example but hopefully you'll see the point. Have I clipped bolts? Sure. Was it appropriate? I could justify it from my own standards. I'm not 100% anti-bolt..they have their limited applications....very limited. Do I make a practice of climbing sport routes? Usually not for various reasons. What I have or have not done doesn't change the issues at hand. SECONDLY....SPEAKING OF ETHICS....IS IT APPROPRIATE FOR YOU TO PUBLICLY SPREAD RUMORS? THE RUMOR YOU SPREAD IN YOUR CHARACTERISTIC CAPITAL LETTERS IS FALSE.

Minx say: "man pope, that is some serious harshness. good grief that means at least half the climbing i'm doing recently doesn't count and i should probably go slash my wrists or something" Dwayner say: Dang, gurl! Don't slash your wrists! You don't need the approval of myself or pope to go sport-climbing! You can think we're lame or vice-versa! Consider this topic an educational experience and make your own choices accordingly. Minx say: "last night i "climbed" (what's the term you want me to use if i didn't start it from the base of the cliff? ) a route that i could not have climbed if we had not built an anchor and dropped the rope." Dwayner say: Top-roping's good...better than clipping sport-bolts. Minx say: "Sorry....i was pushing myself guess i should quit doing that eh? " Dwayner say: Only, I suppose, if you are in dire need of "pope"'s approval. Maybe he can answer that. Minx say: "you're wrong...it's climbing and it's good." Dwayner say: one of many opinions. aloha! - "Dwayner" P.S. No, I am not "pope", although he is my climbing buddy.

Dwayner responds to Petey. PP:"LOL Dwayner cracks me up!" D: Glad you're entertained, muchacho. Keep your "LOL" to a minimum, though, so the boss won't think you're wasting time on the job....unless you are the boss....then chuckle away. PP:"This is Dwayner coming as close as his pride will let him admitting my earlier point that his argumentationt was a serious mess." D: You know nothing of my pride or the boundaries thereof. This sort of impromptu personality analysis is what has gotten you into trouble before. I admit nothing other than that your inability to comprehend comprises "the mess" here. PP:"Simply put it was not making much sense." D:See last sentence of last comment. PP:"I am glad you are trying to straghten it out now." D:I'll assume you mean "straighten". I'll remember to use smaller words and less exotic punctuation when discussing this in the future. PP:"I must say I wasn't surprised but a bit saddened by your personal attacks." D: From the man who told Dwayner to "get a life"! PP:"This is our own goofy academy and although our discussions can be a bit con moto let's keep them freindly." D:I ain't angry. Looks pretty "freindly" around here! PP:"Of course you argument is still suspect." D: Again, see above. PP: "Sport bolting itself( I ask for a definition please!) to my mind isn't the issue. Imagine Vantage with only 6 sport routes. Not such a goofy mess. Many areas had climbing restrictions in the old days too. A more logical cause of the problem is simply over crowding and overcrowding isn't the same as sport climbing. For example some areas in Nor Cal (limestone) have several sport routes in place and tr anchors for tr routes." D:Sport climbing by its nature is bolt-dependent. Some of us think that bolts should at best be used sparingly if at all. Sport-climbing, in practice, typically involves lines of closely spaced bolts. The simplicity of sport-climbing is attractive to the masses. Not that climbing can't be simple, but it is a fact that it's now possible to lead climbs with a minimum amount of knowledge or gear. In fact, it is now easier than ever to lead climbs that are way over one's ability. This is a result of sport-climbing's typical dependence on the dubious use of closely spaced "safe" bolts. The very nature of sport-climbing is such that it tends to proliferate. It's no doubt fun, but is it an enviromentally responsible thing to do? Alternatives to sport-bolting include top-roping which allows you to enjoy the moves without placing a line of bolts, or just leaving the rock alone, or finding a climb that can be led clean. The "old days" aren't necessarily an issue. As "crackbolter" pointed out earlier, in the "old days" people did what ever they wanted, etc. You could pound pins wherever, cut down trees, whatever. Much of my opinion is based on what I consider to be a purer ethic; an ethic which had a burst of life in the early 70's, proliferated for about a decade, and has been shuffled aside quite a bit by sport-climbing. The ethic? Clean-climbing. Bolts are not clean. If you place them, even one, in my opinion, you should have a darn good reason for permanently altering the environment. Are there clear and fast rules? Not many. I find the gratuitious use of bolts to be a signature of sport-climbing (although the route "creators" probably do not feel this way or perhaps are simply unaware of the issue.) By the way, I really don't care if some of those '70's guys or whoever "weren't all that clean". It's a concept I'm interested in, whether it originated 100 years ago or last week. The stylistic bit....the hangdogging and rehearsal.....it's secondary..it doesn't hurt anything, other than it appears to be another attractive quality of sport-climbing that enables it to proliferate. Hang-dog if you want, and some might think you're really cool (especially when you "suss it out", comb your hair back, and dip into that chalk bag), but others might find you a fool. I also consider it a bit of a silly game. Personally, I have more respect for a trad climber who can walk up to a 5.7 climb, place his own protection from the ground up, successfully complete it, and leave little trace, than for some guy who hangs off closely-spaced bolts for three weeks, trying to wire the moves, before finally "succeeding" and climbing a "5.13". A prediction or speculation......perhaps in future decades....climbers will look back at the age of sport-climbing as an embarrassment. The free-wheeling proliferation of bolts characteristic of the game will be seen as yet another environmentally questionable practice of days gone by. Perhaps, then, there will be new means of protection that will leave no trace, that can be placed and removed at will, but will allow people to do as they please, although the stylistic issues will probably continue to be discussed. PP:"Pope's comments are as usual full of vitriol and goofiness. Why he quotes Dick I am not sure but I can say that I have spent many hours bouldering and climbing sport routes with Dick. His main whine about sport routes is that many end in space rather than at a ledge/stance. To him this is a bogus route. The same would hold true to a crack which ended at a blank section." D:Take it up with "pope". - Dwayner...who's really starting to get bored. P.S. Is "goofy" the word of the day?

I ain't the choppin' sort...but maybe you should consider a little more top-roping, and a little less bolting in your life. Although I'm all for top-rope anchors as a compromise to bolting a top-ropable face. Those you probably shouldn't mess with. - Dwayner. ahoy!

mtngrrrrl says: "Got climbing? Got fun. These non-debate debates are not fun." Drill bolts wherever the hell you feel like as long as it provides an easy opportunity for your amusement?...have fun. Ignore the environmental implications of such?....have fun. Yes, these debates are not fun, in fact, they should challenge you to think about your beliefs and behavior. No, they are not non-debates; if that is what you believe, you obviously don't understand them. Have fun!