Peter_Puget

My view of the Gods An ideal for my living I am cleansed by Lou

Ever stop and consider the possibly that Spray is analogous bolting in the real world? A little is great but too much ruins the fun.

I remember backpacking in the 60s in Sierra Nevada Mountains and watching a team getting ready to climb Banner Peak. To my eyes that was an amazing goal and I knew right then that I wanted to climb mountains. Later hiking at the Pinnacles Nat Mon. I realized I was only half right at the base of Banner, I wanted to rock climb not be a mountaineer. I also distinctly remember drinking water directly out of some streams without worry. My parents came to the West Coast after my father first saw the Sierra Mountains before being shipped off to the South Pacific during WWII. Those who hiked in the Cascades and Sierra Mtns in the 30s and 40 thought “damn all these new imports after WWII have wrecked the isolation and beauty of the mountains.” I remember going to Smith Rocks on a sunny May weekend and being the only climbing party there. Last time I went there I counted 27 people at the Morning Glory Wall. I thought all these people have wrecked MY Smith Rock experience. Maybe in 20 years they’ll be thinking the same thing. But at that time at the Morning Glory Wall these people were having the time of their lives. What crasser from of parochialism could there be than to claim that climbing or the climbing experience has been corrupted or cheapened due to its increased popularity or commercialization. Sure climbing has changed but saying that is a far cry from reasonably asserting that it has become defective. While I can’t bivi along the Icicle like I use to, I can do an amazing number of routes that are directly the result of the nature of modern climbing. While Index may be packed on the weekends, I can run out to Little Si or Exit 38 after work. While the ambiance at the popular cliffs has changed, those desiring solitude and the chance to explore have a phenomenal number of easy opportunities here in the NW. The thing that drives me crazy about the magazines is not that there are too many people at the cliffs but that the magazines promote change and conflict. Every issue has to have some breakthrough - some selling point. I open a magazine now and all I read about is some young teen did this, some woman did that. How hard is hard? How high is high? The experience of climbing seems only to be defined by some standard outside of itself. Some time ago Pope wrote about the experience he had belaying someone on the Edge. That experience at a climb rated so low as to be almost unmentionable in Rock N Ice or Climbing was evidently a great experience for him. One of my most intense experiences was the Good Book a mere 5.6 in Yosemite. I wonder how many times each weekend other climbers are having similarly memorable experiences even on those routes over bolted “Girlfriend” routes. I remember an article years ago in Climbing about some 50 foot cliff somewhere in the Midwest. The cliff was nothing, the routes were nothing but the writer was so excited about climbing there that his enthusiasm made the article one to be remembered. Where are articles like that today?

Well then help me improve my train of thought and correct my facts.

Pope - I didn’t mean to imply you were sexist. In fact, I believe that if I was to remove the word "woman" from my last post it would not change the logic. My error was putting that word near the "girl friend route " comments. What I was getting at was not that a woman climbed it but that I believe any worthwhile argument against bolting doesn't rest on a personal experience anyone may or may not have had with a route. Excuse my idiocy but the argument still seems to be:“We bold traditional climbers with higher standards have better values than you wimpy sport climbers not able to suck it up.” I simply find this approach itself arrogant and not very effective despite the fact that I am sympathetic to it. Your right that many are not offended by what Vantage has become. My guess is that they view the world differently than you and me (at least with regard to this issue) My guess also is that since they do not share your vision many will see your position as only a reflection of your values – values they do not share. Values not intrinsically superior or inferior to their own. I am merely saying that if they do not share your values appealing to your values to change another’s behavior can only be considered vain arrogance from their viewpoint. Sure it might be possible to cow and intimidate them in to submission but then again it might not. In other areas this has lead to an escalation of conflict sometimes ending in “I am not getting my way so I am going to the Land Manager!” And is that truly the best way? (How many time does the word value appear in this paragraph?!) Why isn’t there a discourse regarding Vantage, Si and Exit 38. Is it because they are not valued by “trad” advocates as much as say Leavenworth or Wa Pass? (One climber once told me that chipping at Index didn’t matter because Index was compared to some other areas (say Yosemite) an inferior location.) Is that why there is silence regarding these other areas? If so, this silence reinforces the position that “trad” advocates are merely asserting their own views and values via a selfish “not in my backyard mentality.” In earlier posts I suggested ways to avoid this conflict of vision problem. Thanks for spelling your views out twice and again I apologize for my spelling as I cannot seem to spell out what I am meaning even once! And just to be clear I agree the bolting of DDD is a bad thing! Alpine - It’s true I am suggesting constructive engagement but also must admit that sometimes a peer pressure is needed. Perhaps in the form of “Choppng” a route. I would not be adverse to the new bolts on DDD being removed. By the way I have even chopped some bolts myself and have come to the conclusion that if you make a big mess chopping them you are really doing something wrong! When the bolts on Cunning Stunt at Index were removed I received several phone calls and emails asking if I did it? I did not, but just mention this so that my position is clarified. Just remember that the ‘our” in “our resources” includes everyone.

Yikes! It kills me that all the people advocating limiting bolts all have such a terrible attitude that it make sme want to be against their position just because they seem so self righteous! I agree completely that bolts are over used now but fail to see much in of the way of analysis that will convince anyone who thinks otherwise of that fact. For example the cases stated in this post are either factually wrong or inconsistant with the conclusions drawn from them. Surely this post is a troll trying to incite a series of flames. I respond only because this is a serious issue which should be dealt with in a more responsible manner as the impact of future regulation will be serious indeed. Peter

Yeow! My spelling is terible!

This is about as sporting as shooting fish in a barrel. Wrong with attitude - I essentially agree with you and yet I am so repulsed by the tone of your message that I feel like bolting City Park. Whats with disparaging others who you do not even know with insults as to their motivations and so on. Surely you have heard the old adage its easier to catch a fly with honey than with vinegar. Your attitude limits others from seeing that you may have a valid point of view. Argue against oneself - ""Numba-10", an old aid line that now takes RP's and other assorted small items. I know you can place pieces in the crack every few feet but I guess it's a lot easier to clip bolts and hang then to try it the bold way. " Notice the words "now takes". At the time the bolts were place your admit that the placements wern't there. Thus to lead it the bold way mean free solo! Not factual - "It can be led on aid using cam-hooks and small stuff, but someone, in the name of "preserving the crack" from additional piton damage or whatever left an obnoxious line of bolts so that it could "free-climbed"; an arrogant event that has probably caused more permanent damage to the surrounding rock than a herd of aid climbers." This time it must be ignorance on your part. The initial arch was first lead free at 5.12. It is now 5.10+. When first bolted it was 5.11+. This route was significantly changed by pins and cam hooks subsequent to the first ascent and subsequent to the bolting. Also bolts have been added to this pitch since it was first bolted. Unquestionably the intial bolts in no way caused more perm damage to the surrounding rock than the herd of climbers that followed. To suggest otherwise is an outright lie or patent ignorance. Indiscriminat bolting would be ugly but even the use of the term is dirisive - I am sure the bolters wanted those bolts where they placed them. I first went to Vantage about 20 years ago and agree its become pretty disgusting but so has Little Si, Exit 38 and many other places. What is irritating is that the posters here often pick specific routes that caused them anguish and then they try to bring in an authority outside of their aurgument. Why mention Index when the post is about DDD? 1970s almost freeing of City Park. Pope - does it really matter to your augument that you watched a woman sport climber climb that route on the Wart Wall? If you hadnt would the retro bolting be ok?It seems that the logic supporting your position should be unattached to any particular route or experience but the posts always degenerate into: "dont turn my routes into gf routes", "don't dumb down climbing". Certainly those posters if they are serious about their position should demand better of themselves.

And Mer is almost right. Almost because it was named after the dead boys not PJ. But wasnt the questionabout the block in reference to a route on the Great Northern Slab not Princely Ambitions?

oops should have been a reply to the music thread not a start of a new one!

What groups performed the songs that the following three routes at the Lower Town Town Wall were named after: Sonic Reducer, Pretty Vacant, amd Terminal Preppie.

Those posts advocating Smith, Squamish or City as the best bets for several day visit by an out of towner are right on the money; however, out of those three Squamish has the highest chance of bad weather but in my opinion has the best climbing. How long are you planning to be in the seattle area? If you are going to be in the metro area for awhile I would suggest buying the Traveler's guide at REI ($10.00) and thats all youll need for the areas close to Seattle. Note that Leavenworth Vantage and Tieton are too far away to be included. Honestly for the best advice I think youll have to disclose more of your itinery.

Here's a couple of true Index stories: While climbing a route in the Country I can across a RP in a crack along with three sets of RP and a carabiner. Being a poor climber I was psyched and thought what great booty. Later that night I started thinking what the loser was thinking as he was quite likely equally poor. So I made few phone calls and a few hours later someone called who I never met saying he was the "loser." I returned them via a mutual friend. A few years later I left my pack at the base of Town Walls. The next day coming home my mother said "some guy" called and dropped off my pack. I didn't even realize I had forgotten it. That some guy didn't know me from adam and found out who I was via phone calls that asked: "anyone know who has a brown pack?"

Am I ever sorry that I made the mistake of joking around and saying Dick wasn’t a real person. I actually did it after talking to him in the AM. Believe it or not, I have heard many stories involving Dick over the years that cannot possible be true due to the fact that at the time the story was supposedly taking place he was in half the world away. For the record, Dick is not usually drunk, stoned or disheveled and generally looks in shape. Over the 25 years I have known him he is the most “psyched to climb” person I have ever met. Nic or Erik I am sure you would have a great time bouldering/climbing with him – look at the post for partner wanted. With regard to, Crazyjz’s comments, as far as I know Dick’s never anonymously posted a vitriolic and mean spirited BB post such as his. I am continually amazed at the coarseness and pettiness of the personal attacks sometimes posted here. I am never quite sure of their motivation but they certainly reflect negativity that is not part of my world.

I think the vaccine is not as effective as the more commonly taken vaccines (eg tetnus) and recent evidence points to the vaccine causes rheumatoid arthritis symptoms in at least some humans. I was thinking the vaccine sounded good but now think I need to do more reading on it. Does any one known any one who has used it? I wonder what Drs tell people considering it

Come on haven't any of you ever said you were Dick? I have met several Dicks over the years. Hell I've even been a Dick a couple times in the Icicle. Dru, when did you see him in JT?

FYI: Dick Cilley is just a guidebook invention when the FA party was unknown.

Don't tell Jean Todt he's not part of a team. GO DC!

Although interesting I keep thinking that the continued preoccupation with arguing over specific routes at specific areas misses the larger issue which is that bigger issues are at stake than a particular route or area. In this my 30th year climbing I am convinced that the sword of Damocles is hanging over the sport’s head. The sword being the specter of regulation. Earlier I suggested that no “community” exists. No one responded to this point so I will raise it again. Background: In the late 80s I was at Smith Rocks with a bunch of Sport Climbers. The discussion came up that some “Bird Watchers” were upset at what was happening at the Park. When I said that I remember climbing at Smith in the 70s and that I could see why they were upset. (Note I didn’t say that they were right only I could see their issues) I was astounded that everyone else participating in the discussion looked at me like I was goofy – they could not or at least would not admit to any negative aspects Smith’s transformation. Ultimately their values differed so much from my own and until I could change their values we would never come to the same conclusion. They could not even see a differing position as being valid. It is not a question of us being on different starting positions with hope of finding a meeting place - we were on different planes. Ultimately each viewpoint merely expresses someone’s personal values. Consequently why should each listen to the other? Absent threat of force or I guess public ridicule I can’t see a reason. In otherwords why are one person’s values more important than an others? In short they aren’t. HOWEVER in the context of a “community” people by definition have to deny some of their own personal desires to the greater good. I see the solution in pragmatic terms where actions aren’t ridiculed (see how many rap bolter’s actions have been denigrated in this thread) but viewed in terms of their consequences. Since we all share the same scarce resources and all feel the same affects of changes in land management policy it is precisely around the issue of consequences that a true community can form. For example routes squeezed in creating a bolt grid whether done in a “traditional” or “sport” style are sure to provoke a responses by land managers and other climbers. This is especially true at easily accessible locations. Regardless of FA style routes creating this situation should not be made. Since excessive bolting is an issue with land managers it should always be avoided because of the consequences of the act. Acts at all climbing areas have consequences. A quick response to Pope’s comment regarding the “American Tradition” : You have given a name to a method of first ascent but to say it is a “tradition” is a far different matter. I brought up Jardine not so much to illustrate he broke the rules but to show that the mass of climbers seem to now consider the use of chopped holds valid in freeing a route. The cover of the free climbs guidebook to Yosemite even goes so far as to show a route now bolted that was originally climbed w/o bolts. I am simply suggesting that “American Tradition” was something advocated as the “right thing” for a short period of time and collapsed as the (publicized) predominant ethos at the first opportunity. It is in no way a tradition in a meaningful sense of the word.

1. Seems like in many ways this thread can logically be joined up with “The Future” thread. 2. In any meaningful sense there is no “community.” There are a group of people who can be classified apart from others by an activity they engage in. The question is not “how can the community keep rap bolting out of WA Pass or develop rules of conduct that will prevent regulation of government?” Absent a real community the question expressed here is how can I prevent one of my favorite areas (WA Pass) from turning into something I don’t like. What if a community did develop and decided unequivocally that Wa Pass should be a Sport area? Would you be part of that community? Abide by its consensus? Appeal to the land manager directly? 3. The issues at Wa Pass are those faced all over the State (Country) and cannot be viewed in isolation. For example, the widespread use of chipping and overbolting (both frowned upon by land managers and a large percentage of climbers) institutionalized at Si is often discounted by 1) proclaiming that these activities are limited in area, 2) the area can only be developed by rap bolting and cleaning. 3) the routes are popular or 4) I don’t climb that hard how can I say anything. Yet due to their popularity these areas become models by which land manager judge climbers and models by which young climbers take their cue. These areas have been used explicitly to justify recent rebolting activity in the Country area at Index where new bolts were added to existing climbs as well as some routes that were protectable by non-fixed protection. Is the condor route merely an extension of these activities to the Icicle? The Concord Tower route to Wa Pass? 4 The “Yosemite” or “American Tradition” is not all it is cracked up to be. After all didn’t some of the first 5.10s in Yosemite have rap placed bolts. Didn’t the free ascent of the Nose use Jardine’s chipped holds? Americans are nothing but pragmatists and the American tradition has been extremely mutable over time and with the extreme changes in the climbing environment it can have little use but to remove any debate over current activities – esp. when the tradition being used is mythical. 5 The development of a “Community” is essential. How can this be done? By discussions such as this but also by all climbers discussing these issues and realizing that these discussion s do not have to be mean spirited and that they are in fact essential to the development of a community. I would go so far as to say that climbers have an obligation to discuss/debate these issues. Mark Twight by virtue of his being Mark Twight should have no more authority than any other member. All voices are important if they are willing to particpate in the debate constructively. The Access Fund and other groups cannot remove this obligation. 6 The development of a community will most probably result in a consensus that is often at conflict with the personal desires of some of the community. Members of the community subordinate their personal interests. Some won’t. Peer pressure can often work wonders on these rogues. (Disclaimer: This was written quickly at work. Please forgive the poor construction)