Backcountry

Breakthough advances in composite technology created the opportunity for Team Gander Mountain to deploy the all new hi-ploymer lawn furniture high upon the route. The aircraft grade aluminum alloy and superlite hi-polymerized white plastic provide for the greatest strength and lightest weight lawn furniture offered on the market for an expedition of this caliber. The Team Gander Mountain expedition will also be beta testing a new and as yet untried "Mountain Cooler". This "Mountain Cooler" will provide the highest levels of cooling for the expeditions supplies, more than any other lesser "cooler" can provide in the harsh Artic realm.

It's been edited/updated so I bumped it up again. Go Team!!!

Team Gander Mountain is headed to Denali. Equipped with the latest in hi-tech gear from the catalog. New technology utilized has enabled the team to climb higher and faster. --Advances such as the new refillable propane stove with lite-wieght steel burner and steel stove base. --New extreme durability 100% nylon outerwear, protects our team in the harshest of realms. --All new for this year the 100% cotton sleeping bags, no more stickey "synthetic" bags, sleep in comfort. Team Gander Mountain supports the Tread-lightly program even though thier packs only wiegh 100 pounds now with the latest in lite-wieght alpine gear. Good luck guys!!! [This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 05-01-2001).]

According to the Washington State Snowmobile Assoc. Here's some info: All funds from your snowmobile registration fees and fuel tax refunds directly benefit the sport of snowmobiling in Washington State by providing: Trail grooming programs Sno-Parks and sanitary facilities Sign programs Snowplowing Equipment purchases (groomers) Safety and Education programs Administration of State Parks Snowmobile Act Law enforcement An average Saturday I burn at least 8 gallons if not 10 gallons of fuel. Now multiply that by an average of at least 20 rides a season, that would most likely equate to the extra twenty dollars paid for groomed trails by non-motorized. Don't forget trailer licensing too... [This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 04-17-2001).]

5:45 shoot, I'd been at work for 45 minutes already...Something can be said for early start time...get to enjoy the long summer days better... I know, I know, we're long and big...most guys aren't... As far as the anonimity of snowmobilers and using that as a controlling mechanism to keep them out of restricted areas, that's a tough one. Enforcement would be tough. It would be like calling the cops while on the freeway saying that there is a guy speeding, his license number is XXXXXX. The cops aren't going to do anything, I think legally they can perhaps, but are they going to start pulling people over simply because someone called in reporting it. I would have to say though as climbers/hikers, we typically have a camera with us, and that if for instance we did see someone over into Ingalls Lake, then perhaps a photo and a registration number could be sufficient proof to enact some form of fines/ticketing. In Canada they have helo's that patrol the wilderness area looking for such violations, will our wonderfully inefficient beauracy start to spend funds on this, not likely in the near term. However, at Adams, the Yakama Indians do patrol thier area, and it is mostly and widely known that they do and many people avoid riding there. Unlike the HUGE plywood sign at Ingalls, Adams is poorly marked. I think that if there were only a few people caught and fined for entering the ALWA, then the word would spread and people would again(or begin to) respect that boundary and others like it. [This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 04-17-2001).]

quote: Originally posted by vegetablebelay: Ok, sorry to hog the podium, but here's one for Backcountry. Backcountry, you're comparison of abuse in the backcountry neglects to detail the abuse of your engines and tread on the environment compared to that of a climber. As far as your Snowpark infringements, a climber or skiier pays (in theory) for the same Snowpark pass that a snowmobiler with a motorhome, or SUV (always with a large trailer attached) that you do. You take up more room in the parking areas, and (my bad if I'm incorrect) you aren't paying any additional fees or licenses to drive your machines in the backcountry. It was interesting in the related story about the jet ski vs kayak incident earlier. If that sh*& went down with a snowmobile here, there are no licenses or other identifying marks on snowmobiles to identify those who commit the infractions. A victim of such an offense would be pretty much S.O.L. Vegetablebelay doesn't like the snowmobile lobby. I'd agree to a certain extent that there is some harm done to the "environment" from misuse of snowmobiles. Speaking only from my experience, I only ride in naturally open areas, or clearcuts(with the exception of trips to Baker). Clearcuts in my opinion are a managed area with partially mitigated damage already occured. If I run over a tree top in a clearcut I wouldn't think much of it in comparasion of NOT running over some heather at altitude. My Sno-Park beef is that all most snowmobilers are asking for is that you leave about 8 foot of room behind our trailer to facilitate loading. It's almost like coming down the hill and finding that you have a flat tire, it's extra hassle for a little consideration to leave a little room. There are no blazing ID marks on a sled and it shouldn't be necessary either. Is it necessary, no, I would think it would almost be akin to saying "I know you're going to do something wrong, so we need to ID you". I think that the jet-ski instance above is a tad on the rarer side than most average users. Snowmobiles are required to pay to register thier snowmobiles(ORV tag) and get a SNOWMOBILE sno-park permit, not valid anywhere else than a snowmobile sno-park, so someone like myself I have to pay for more than one permit. We also pay the same gas tax as if we were a improved road user. I'm somewhat content with the areas that we are currently allowed to snowmobile in. Again I'd like to point out the viable areas that we can ride in are in comparasion much smaller. Therefore I think also with that, there's a forced density, so you'll see higher instances of abuse. Again, I think, also as mentioned before that it closely mimics the rest of society and it's daily abuses. Not that it's right, but it requires a total solution, which isn't likely to be easy to come by. I find road side camping far more abusive and agreegous than any snowmobiler abuse anyday. Save our lands for us, not from us.

I couldn't help but point out the irony that in one post, and admitted, that gregm was perhaps hinting, even in jest, that harm come upon anyone, while then using the "bastard" machines to serve his purpose. I've hiked and climbed for many years now and have gotten into snowmobiling only in the last two. Here's my 2 cents.... In a comparasion of areas that climbing/hiking activities are allowed in comparasion to areas that snowmobiling is either allowed, or is feasible, I find that there are FAR more areas to partake in climbing/hiking. As a snowmobile rider we are mostly limited to either the roads, partially treed areas, or clearcuts, and in the case of Baker, snowfields and glaciers. Simply from the basis of what's fair as far as areas to partake in the "activity" of our choice, climbers and hikers have the "advantage". A little snowmobiling 101, just the basics to address the issues of sound and 4 stroke engines. Sound. There are several companies who HAVE taken heed to address the issue, as well as the manufacturers. We both face the same issues, it seems almost paradox like, WEIGHT. Granted we've got this nice souped up 115 horsepower engine, but every pound counts. Snowmobiles drive systems are inherently inefficient and therefore don't transfer nearly that HP to the ground. Where does weight fall into this, well, one of the cheapest and easiest ways to shed weight from your sled is the OEM muffler. As mentioned this has been noticed by several aftermarket hop-up companies that realize that sound IS an issue and have begun to maufacture both lite-wgt and quiet silencers. 4 stroke engines are heavy in comparasion. Sleds already weigh in around 500-520 pounds, not counting the snow packed in the rear suspension(600 is easy). Add an engine that produces half the power for the given equal displacement that weighs twice as much. Again, it's power to weight ratio. To be able to acess the areas that we find appealing for some of the same reasons, takes a skilled rider and some umpf to move the now 800 pound rider-sled combo thru the same oft desired powder. I posted this topic over at a snowmobile site to get some attention to the undercurrent of contempt that I see from climbers/hikers towards snowmobilers in general. I read the climbing reports from last year at Baker and two reports I found intriguing. One mentioned no route info, only that there was trash, and the other again had minimal route info, but a dedicated and focused attack that the "end of the world" had become Baker. I was up on the mountain the same weekend that the climbing report was filed. Unless, because I was zooming around so fast and recklessly that I didn't see it, I found that the Easton/Schriebner area to be in pretty good shape given the amount of use it sees. My point is that the both "sides" do commit offenses, the fire pit at Peggy's Pond, the frozen bags of piss at Muir, the terds on the Ingraham Glacier, the beer cans left behind, the sound-issue, entering wilderness areas. Point is, I think that this reflects society because it IS society. If you buzz a climber, I half expect to get an ice ax in my dome, you park RIGHT behind a sled trailer, expect some attitude back. As climbers we feel elitist and a notch above the "rest", we should feel that way, we go and do things most people only think about, if they even know "its" there. As snowmobilers, we feel that we have a limited area to apply our craft and that impingment upon that from climbers or hikers that park RIGHT behind my sled trailer, or submit "glorified" route reports in an effort to get snowmobiling shut-down warrant an attitude back. In closing in my rant here, I think that we need to both look at our impact, daily and in the future. We need to save our lands for us, not from us. I try to do my part to help educate and inform both sides, often getting alot of attitude back from fellow riders or climbers. I think that I feel compelled to tell some asshole to pick up his beer can or tell someone not to go into the ALWA(Ingalls Lake for instance) and then maybe ask a climbing party to not dig a ditch around thier tent or erect yet another rock wall, because next day/week/month/year we might not be allowed here anymore.

quote: I've often wondered if this could be adapted as a way to deal with snowmobiles. For someone to show such comtempt and disgust towards snowmobiles, it sure must have saved you a slog into Ingalls http://staff.washington.edu/gregm/ingalls.html [This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 04-16-2001).]