Tod

Do they have to have an inspector when they make a creek crossing for foot travel (i.e. log bridges on trails)? They could have designated the road "trail" during the construction period, thrown log bridges across the creeks for foot traffic. As for now, I agree that they need inspectors for the bridges, but not for foot traffic. The bridges are fine and there is no reason to have the road/trail closed to foot access. My two cents....

Bridges are done, paved and look beautiful. Road and trails are STILL closed from Eightmile trailhead to the Colchuck Lake trail junction. It's frustrating and stupid that the Forest Service would close the trailhead when it's an easy walk from the Eightmile trailhead, particularly now when the bridges are done and there seems to be no reason to have the road and trailhead closed.

Here's the conditions as of Sunday. I don't think things have changed much since then because the snow level doesn't seemed to have dropped much lower than it was on Sunday, but I'm sure the upper enchantments have a few more inches of snow though. There were knee deep snow drifts in places in the upper enchantments, but overall there was only a few inches of snow on the ground. Colchuck Lake and Aasgard Pass on Sunday October 13th, 2003 Upper Enchantments, 7,800', Isolation Lake, just over and to the SE of Aasgard Pass

John, is this another oddity in Beckey's seeming legacy of renaming peaks or was Himmelgeister Horn shortened before the publishing of the CAG? I seem to remember that the Chopping Block (Pinnacle Peak) was another peak that originally had a different name, but through the CAG was renamed? Am I making this up or was there a story to this peaks name(s) also? BTW - To those reading this incredible thread, I don't mean to bring up or dwell on the topic of Beckey changing names. I've never met him, yet believe he has left the cascades an incredible legacy of exploration and documentation that we all will forever be indebted to. My reason for dwelling on his tendancy to rename peaks is that it seems like the original names have great importance in the history and legacy of the original exploration and ascents. Beckey's legacy may be more important as a whole, but these significant details (the original names) may be lost if they are not preserved and are important to the documentation of the original exploration and climbs of the North Cascades.

They only conversation that we had with them was that they had camped at the West Ridge notch and that they had simulclimbed from they're to where we passed them. They were sticking to the ridgeline and avoided the snow/ice traverse. This did seem to slow them down as it seemed like they got bogged down on the last bit of the ridge above the start (west side) of the snow/ice traverse.

When we looked down from the col to the south at the start (western edge) of the snow/ice traverse it sure looked like a very doable Class 3-4 ramp. When we were screwing around the day before on the south side of the ridge (just to the east of the SE gulley of Torment) we also saw that the ramp seemed to go. The problem was that the ramp was below us and we didn't want to go back down to check it out and see if it really did go...

Black Bears and Grizzly bears have very different temperments. It's like the difference between a Family dog and a Pit Bull. Unless you corner and threaten a Black Bear, you'll be hard pressed to even get near it or be in danger. They're much more scared of you and will usually run before you can get near them. Grizzly's obviously are a much different story... Call me ignorant if you want about the temperment of black bears, but this is from years of experience and close encounters. Of two notable close encounters: One summer I ran into 15 black bears, once while sleeping out in the open one was 10 feet from me and ran when I moved, another time I was caught between a female and it's two cubs. The cubs ran up the tree, the female ran away down the hill and around me back towards it's cubs. I was spooked needless to say.... I've heard reports of Grizzly's along Lake Chelan, but that's about it. I am pretty sure that the east slopes of the Cascades all the way from Entiat River north have a high probability of inhabiting Grizzly Bear.

Last weekend (October 4-6) myself and mtnear decided to do the Torment-Forbidden traverse. mtnear wanted to do the West Ridge of Forbidden and since I had climbed Forbidden before (via N Ridge) I figured a more entertaining way to do the trip would be to do the Torment-Forbidden traverse since I had not climbed Torment before. Our plan was to do it in two days, take a relaxed pace with day packs and bivy gear. As has been reported before, the first 1/3 of the traverse is not straightforward and really slowed us down. We had some trouble finding the Class 3-4 route up the SE gulley of Torment and ended up doing one pitch of 5.7 mid-gulley (with packs loaded with water for the next 2 days). Beyond that, the route up from the gulley to the top of Torment is Class 3-4 and was not an issue. Torment didn’t seem like that great of a climb and had lot’s of loose rock and an unpleasant gulley. What did slow us down quite a bit was trying to figure out where your suppose to cut over to the north side of the Torment-Forbidden ridgeline. We cut across some ramps (50-100yds east of SE gulley of Torment) and up another gulley that ended up putting us above the glacier that sits below the NE face of Torment. We rapped/climbed down to the glacier and bivied there, our day was done. We were disappointed that we had finished the 1st day without leaving the shadow of Torment. The next morning, we traversed across the glacier, rounded and climbed the next north rib to the east of Torment and got onto the glacier where the famed snow/ice traverse is that is on the north side of the Torment-Forbidden traverse. From the col that is at the start of the snow/ice traverse it looks as though there is a Class 3-4 ramp that comes up the south side from the base of the SE gulley of Torment. I am guessing that this is the correct route and would have saved us time if we had stayed low on our initial traverse from Torment. Instead we took a more scenic tour… The snow/ice traverse is definitely a two tool traverse right now. There is a section that is hard ice, other parts are hard snow/neve. At this point in the morning we passed two guys heading west on the traverse doing the Forbidden-Torment traverse via the East Ridge of Forbidden. They stayed on the ridgeline above the snow/ice traverse, however it looked like it slowed them down considerably. From the snow/ice traverse to the top of the ridgeline is Class 3-4 as is the rest of the traverse. We did not rope up for the entire traverse and the going is pretty fast with little route finding once you get past the snow/ice traverse. We did end up doing a running belay for the lower West Ridge of Forbidden and belayed two upper sections of the West Ridge. We topped out on Forbidden at 6pm and rapped down the NE Face. By the time we got past the 5th rappel the sun was setting and the traverse over to the East Ridge gendarme was by headlamp. Let’s just say that sucked… Rather than head down from the East Ridge in the dark we bivied at the gendarme and headed out in the morning. A safe decision, but with people in town expecting us back Sunday night it didn’t sit well with a significant other. Turns out phone calls were made at 3am and a Skagit County Deputy was at the ranger station Monday morning checking on our status. Thanks Geordie for keeping everyone cool and at bay. I can’t say that that having people worry about you is wrong, but it usually escalates beyond reality (in there mind) as what happened here. Thankfully Geordie knows the territory and explained that it’s not uncommon for people to come out late on climbs in the North Cascades. Regardless, an interesting end to a great climb. My question to those who have done the traverse: Where is the best or correct place to cut over to the north side of the ridge. Do you do it at the top of the SE gulley of Torment or is it better to take the Class 3-4 ramp that comes up the south side from the base of the SE gulley of Torment that looks like would work? Here’s a picture and a map describing our route and what I am thinking is the correct route. Were we off route? Hopefully your comments will clear things up for me and possibly for others who want to do the traverse also.

I still go back to the my points above: Mainly, should the original names of the Ragged Ridge peaks be used, honored and respected in the manner that the first ascent parties intended? If there were native names for these peaks as Stefan points out, then I would lean towards those names, however being the remote peaks they are, I doubt it. Being that there were still many peaks to be climbed in the Cascades in the late 60's, a few parties made the climbs of these unnamed peaks, got the FA's and named them. Why didn't the original names stick and why would the names be changed?

The heart of the matter is whether or not the original names for Ragged Ridge should have been used, honored and respected in the manner that the first ascent parties intended. -Do first ascent parties have the absolute right to name a peak? I don’t think first ascent parties have the absolute right to name a peak, but in cases where they are the people who brought the attention and detail of a peak to the world (such as by climbing or exploring), then yes there is an unwritten right. I am sure the U.S. Board of Geographic Names has set rules that I don’t know of, but it seems legit to respect the names given by the people who became intimate with the said mountain first. Many explorers, settlers, prospectors, and surveyors have claimed rights to name peaks, and in most cases have done so in a respectful way. Other times, people have knowingly (and unknowingly) taken the right themselves to rename peaks. Take Mt. Rainier or Mt. McKinley for example: Rainier was named in 1792 by the explorer Capt. George Vancouver for Rear Adm. Peter Rainier (who never saw the mountain). The original native names of Tahoma, Tacobet, Tuwouk and Tacoba were never applied (even though the city of Tacoma fought for decades to get the name changed to the “original” name of Tacoma). The question of Rainier’s name went before arbiters at the U.S. Board of Geographic Names three times, in 1890, 1917 and 1924 without any change. Mt. McKinley was (re)named by the Princeton graduate and gold prospector, William Dickey in 1896, however the original native name of Denali has never been officially applied even though Hudson Stuck of the first ascent party (re)named the peak Denali in 1913. -Do names have to be inspiring or fitting in order to be valid? This is really a grey issue being that “inspiring” is a personal judgement. Names describing the shape of a mountain like Hogsback or Flattop are not that inspiring to me, but they seem fitting. Names of peaks named after people such as Mt. Adams, Mt. Logan, Jack Mtn are not inspiring to me either, but due to history and tenure, they fit and are accepted. I think the real deciding factor, does the person given the “right” to name the peak feel it is a fitting name (and does the U.S. Board of Geographic Names accept the name). In the case of Ragged Ridge, this has more to do with respecting the original climbers decided peak names as they were the first ones who brought the attention and detail of these peaks to climbers and general public of the Northwest. Regardless of whether the names are fitting, the original names should not have changed. It seems to be a case of artistic license when the CAG was written, and something that was disrespectful and should not have been accepted by the U.S. Board of Geographic Names. Being that topographic maps, and guidebooks are rapidly changing (with technology quickly changing how we see and view the world, nothing is left for granted), it seems to be a opportune time to petition the change of these peaks names back to the original names. How is this done effectively?

Jeeez! That is bare. I was out there this time last year and we were able to walk acroass a bunch/most(?) of the glacier, but it doesn't look like you can do that now. I'll have to grab a picture from last year and post it for comparison. Everything I have seen personally or in pictures is dryer, bare and more clean of snow or glacier than I have ever seen it....

I did the traverse traverse from Little Jack Mountain to Crater Mountain yesterday. Beautiful country, but the terrain directly under Jack Mountain is not easy going. I was expecting to climb Jack and Crater along the way but ran out of time since I was supposed to be back in Seattle by 5pm for dinner with friends. So..... the climb turned into a traverse of the Crater Creek basin. Left Ruby Creek trailhead at 5pm Saturday eve and was on top of Little Jack Mountain by 8pm. The trail to Little Jack Mountain is in decent shape, but doesn't seem to be maintained or used much. A few snags or brush here and there, but overall a clear path. Camped under the stars Saturday night (beautiful night). Got going at 6:30am from Little Jack and made the traverse to the South Face gulley. The traveling was easy up until I got to the large gulley west of the main South Face Gulley. From there it took me an hour to fight the brush, trees and cliffs to get to the main gulley (a short distance away). Time, 9am. There is a climbers path from the main South Face gulley to the Crater Creek Meadow to the east. If you descend the South Face gulley and are looking for the path, you have to climb up very high on the top edge of the trees and stay along the edge of trees and the cliff above. Crater Creek Meadow is a very beautiful meadow with a gurgling creek snakeing it's way through it. Definitely a good place to camp if your climbing Jack Mtn. I made my over and back down to Jerry Lakes, and then up to the Jerry Glacier. Was at the upper Jerry Glacier saddle (7,300) at 12:30. The glacier is pretty dry and broken up in places but is easily traveled with crampons. Along the way I was not able to spot the ramp from the lower glacier to the ridgeline north of Crater Mtn. I think I saw a few scrambling possibilities that could be the so called ramp, but they looked a little sketchy and possibly incomplete. Anyone have any detail on the ramp from the glacier to the ridgeline north of Crater Mtn that is vaguely described in the Becky Guide? The trail is in great shape going down from Crater Mtn. If there was any question as to what the best way in to Jack Mtn is, it's via Crater Mtn. A bit longer but easier and more scenic/interesting, but I think most everyone except me knew that.... Back at the car by 3pm, and in town by 5:30 (doh! 1/2 hour late and the wife was upset). Great traverse regardless. 20 mile loop ~8900 ft climbed/descended 12hrs

Some of the locations mining relics in the glacier basin area: -rusted piece of iron 2/3 mileage to Glacier Basin next to trail at creek crossing -rusted machine or vehicle of some sort (pictured in above posting) at switchback where the old mining road continues up creek and trail switchbacks right. -foundation and hole in ground where old hotel used to stand is at the campsites at glacier basin. -mines, tailings and switchbacked mining roads or trails are located across the valley from the campsites at glacier basin (and slightly up creek). I'm sure there are tons more evidence around, but that is what is easily visible from the trail.

Looking from the north there was still some "fresh" snow hanging around the north side of Forbidden. Higher peaks didn't seem to be holding anything or much on the south sides and with good weather this week I doubt there will be any snow except for in shaded areas near the summit.

Very interesting. If only there was a way to reinstate the original names. I kind of like the "Mount Holyoke" name, particularly since it has more of a story to it. John: Check your PM's if you can. Tod

Hey Stefan, Yes I do remember that trip, 4th of July, 1998 if I remember correctly. In fact I've got a few photos from that trip you might find humorous (with the fog/rain and all). I'll PM you with the links. That was an interesting trip with the weather, though still one of my favorite areas in the Cascades. Funny you remember the Split Decision episode; I've never had an odder experience on Rainier than that... I'm glad to see that your back in action after last years accident (and now with a kid!). Tod

I never new my name translated that way. Very funny. Good to know. I've always been more proud of the origin of the name, being that it's meaning is "fox" from Middle English todde. Yes I do recall vividly dodging a few very large chunks of tod. I specifically remember the ones I dodged while on an overhanging rapel that ricocheted past me. They seemed to have come out of nowhere and just as quickly dissappeared into the deafaning rain. Certainly one of my more memorable trips also. Hopefully we may have a chance to enjoy a climb together in the future. With your history in the cascades I hope you are able to continue to post here as discussions of this nature are not only incredibly interesting, but important to the continuity of the history. Any comments/thoughts on the original names of the peaks within Ragged Ridge? I believe you have the first ascents on a few of these? Tod

That sounds about right since the last figure I saw, BD has about 95% of the cam market. If less than 95% of your repairs are BD Camalots then that would suggest that Camalots have better than average durability....

There are also dams on Colchuck Lake and Snow(?) Lake (where the trail crosses the lake outlet). I believe these dams were built so that a reservoir of water could be stored in the Icicle Creek drainage in order to supply water for the aqueduct that you can see in the lower Icicle Creek canyon. I think the dams and the aqueduct were built in the early to mid 1900's so that farmers in the Leavenworth valley would have a consistent supply of water. You can see the aqueduct from the road near the Snow Creek trailhead and the trail crosses over it shortly after leaving the trailhead.

This is really incredible to now have both John Roper and Harry Majors lending their incredible insight of the North Cascades to the cc.com community. I can easily say that my interest in the outdoors and climbing exploded thanks to an incredible opportunity to climb in the Picketts with John Roper and Gary Mellom some 12(?) years ago. An incredible experience because of both the company and the location that truly inspired me to explore and experience the North Cascades as much as possible. An interesting note John, it was during this trip that you and Gary mentioned to me how bad the rock was on Boston (among other things about your thoughts on the peak). Just this year I was able to thumb through the Boston summit register and find your (and Gary's) entry. The register is in mint condition and your entry and commemoration is as intact as the date you wrote it. Good to hear from you again John. Tod Bloxham

I found a brush on top of some peak in the North Cascades one time (many many years ago). I'm still using it to this day....

Using the Mt. Ruth route you can continue up to the top of steamboat prow by staying on the ridge left/east of Interglacier. From there you can scramble down to the Camp Schurman. It's a crumbly class 3+ scramble that tends to let loose a few good size rocks. Interglacier is pretty tame, however it will have some descent size crevasses this time of year that you would have to navigate around or over. The lower headwall of the glacier has probably melted down to glacier by now and would be dicey without boots and an ice ax. You'll be much better off heading up the Mt. Ruth route. If your looking for solitude, Glacier Basin is not without it's crowds. Tod

My buddy and I did the route last year in late September. No problems with the moat then nor would I expect any now. From the glacier to the ridge crest it's semi rotten 3rd/4th class scrambling. There is a great bivy site where you first hit the crest of the ridge, ~80 feet above the glacier. We were able to reach the bivy site on the ridge with overnight packs and without the need for a rope. There are 2-4 seperate spots for bivy sacks, but nothing big enough for a megamid. If the weather's good it's a great spot with a great view of the Southern Picketts at sunset. The descent isn't that great since it's a lot of downclimbing, however there seems to be a good descent down the SE Ridge that involves long (overhanging?) rappels. I think the person who described it to me said it was a better descent, but involved double ropes for the rappel. Watch out for rangers.... Tod

Most likely National Geographic has licensed their name to a Canadian shoe company and they are selling them in Canada only. It's not uncommon for well known brands/companies to go around to different industries and try and license the use of their name for some extra cash. Sometimes it's the other way around and manufacturers approach the brand so they can license the name because they think it'll sell. Usually these licensees have nothing to do with the brand other than they are allowed to use it for a fee.

It's been under litigation, protest, scrutiny and everything else for 5+ years already and they have made adjustments to satisfy the enviro concerns (or at least the review process). We'll see if the projected approval date comes and goes or not....