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mattp

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Everything posted by mattp

  1. They tell us the folks at Portland State University (I think that's where they are) will be counting the dots the same way, Jason. However, the opportunity to shake hands with people and ask questions both during the discussion part of the meetings and before or after is not there for the on-line survey posters.
  2. There may sometimes be a different set of goals depending whether you are trying to show your friends a good time as opposed to teaching them the skills they need for their own independent mountain adventures. I've taken a number of inexperienced climbers on fixed ropes into an icefall on the lower part of a North Cascades glacier, or set a tyrolean traverse for them to crawl across, or led them up a 5 pitch rock climb with no expectation that they were going to learn anything other than that they had a good time that day. These involved significantly technical outings but they offered an exciting experience where the climb leaders had a high degree of control. On the other hand, I've deliberately combined these kinds of "high impact" outings with a scree slog and a bushwack and maybe a bad gully and perhaps a navigation puzzle where the goal was to try to prepare someone for their own adventures.
  3. I worked for Outward Bound for several years and we used to find that "gray area" very challenging and, indeed, probably more dangerous than than the clearly technical terrain. On many "easy" routes, there are gullies full of loose rock where you can lodge missiles at each other or where a slip could be fatal, and safely managing these can be particularly challenging with even a single newbie. They can be downright deadly with a group. On what you might call "class 3+" we would always set a fixed rope (if you have a single newbie, you might use a short rope or something), but this was not a good option for a nasty gully. Somebody mentioned The Tooth as a climb that, at least in some snow conditions, has terrain that may be difficult to manage with beginners. I'd say it is a perfect example of a climb that is easy to manage in most conditions. I have taken a number of beginners up it. But I think the nearby summer routes on Chair Peak have more loose rock and treachery. I have declined to take beginners on those. That gully approaching Liberty Bell is bad. It is a fantastic climb because it is LIBERTY BELL. The climb is classic and, the morning after the climb, you can go down to the viewpoint and stand for a group photo and everybody is excited (best not to do before the climb). But if you want to take a beginner up there and they have not had any prior experience with loose rock and gullies or funky snow or whatever, I'd head for S. Arete of S. Spire. If they have some rock climbing experience, take the SW Rib.
  4. Sad news, indeed. One thing about Chris: he always said that the most recent climb he had done was his best ever. And he meant it. I bet there are some truly great climbs out there at Martha's Place. Chris on Jacob's Ladder, W. side of Exfoliation Dome, in Clear Creek:
  5. I could probably go tomorrow but not on Sunday. Send PM.
  6. It is rather sad that we have largely come to accept the idea that, as a nation, we cannot afford to maintain public access to public land. Every conversation I have with just about anybody on this topic starts out with the basic premise being "these are hard times..." or something similar. But just like everything else in politics, it is truly a matter of priorities. Forest Service people tell me that there is a lot of money for decommissioning right now (much of this in grants from a variety of sources) while they are getting less and less for maintenance. In a broad sense public access is losing out to other priorities and a quick look at some of the Forest Service budget explanations indicates public access is far lower in priority than restoration, management for resources, and maybe other things. This may be appropriate, depending on your viewpoint, but I don't think we have had much real discussion of whether we really want to leave roads and trails unmaintained -- it has more or less just happened as we all have more or less assumed that nothing could be done about it. The budget cuts are real, and I believe that many of the people in our local forests are going the best they can with what they have but they just aren't getting a lot of public support. I've been told that republican Rep. Herrera Beutler has made noise about public access but I can't remember the last time I heard any politician making much noise about the need to fund the maintenance of roads and trails for public access. There is a lot of lip service paid to "green bonding," but in large part this means building kiosks along highway 20 and stuff like that. Your kids, Jason, have high speed internet interactive nature sites in their kindergarten and they can go see a real nifty bunch of natural history displays at the provincial museam in Victoria but they won't have anywhere near the access that we enjoyed to visit the mountains they can see from your front porch.
  7. The bolts on Broad Daylight are probably OK. I do use the word "probably" but I can tell you that I've been involved in pulling and replacing the first three pitches of the route (these are normally climbed as two), and those bolts are very strong. But they don't instill confidence after climbing on new hardware when, after the third belay, you encounter the old 5/16 buttonheads. And, I should clarify, that I usually only clip two of those Broad Daylight bolts after leaving the belay that both routes share and then get back on The Kone. There are some though-provoking runouts there, but it is not too crazy if you've done much slab climbing before. If not, you'll pucker up a bit to reach the rappell station on top of what the topo's show as the third pitch of The Kone but it is not too bad because the runout part leading to that rappel station is easy. Rappel from there right back to your pack.
  8. I don't remember the Washington Trails Association being radically against access. The North Cascades Conservation Council certainly has been, and it was their newsletters that celebrated the road washouts a few years back and called for a campaign to block any repairs. It was the NCCC and Pilchuck Audubon who sued to block repair of the Suiattle road, and I think it was PA who tried to block repair of the Mountain Loop highway. But things change. A lot of more mainstream environmental groups are talking about how it is important to let people go out and bond with nature. It is a question of balance. Probably none of them would advocate the position that I think you have taken, Fairweather, that we should maintain the status quo (or the status quo of about 15 years ago, perhaps). However, many of them may see value in supporting a push to at least keep most popular trailheads, kayak put-ins, and climbing access points open, and probably realize it is important to provide areas for even the dreaded motorized recreation groups. Hunting and fishing groups have been involved in conservation efforts for years, and I don't really know the status of any connection between horse packers and the broader politics.
  9. No doubt, the access that we have enjoyed may not be available to your kids, Jason. And I think Fairweather is right at least to some extent in suggesting that any outcome of this current process may not directly control which roads end up being closed. I believe climbers should do the following: 1. In this current process we should advocate for roads that serve climbing destinations and may not serve other interests. The Baker Lake road and the Mountain Loop Highway, or the main line N. Fork Sauk road, or whatever, are not going to be closed. The Clear Creek road or that serving Bedal Creek might be. 2. Help the Forest Service help us. Volunteer efforts like that being undertaken by the Darrington Area Friends for Public Use are excellent. We can help assure that culverts are kept clear or do other volunteer work but we can also report maintenance issues to the forest service so that - at least in some cases - they may do some quick work now to avoid big disaster later. 3. Work with our allies to generate support for public access. We are natural partners with whitewater folks, mtn bikers, hunters, and anybody else who enjoys their access to the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest. 4. Feed a national discussion. Fairweather notes that he is unsure "who" directed the Forest Service to undertake this identification of 75% of their roads for closure. I think it was the Forest Service who did so. But I also think that there should be broader discussion of this idea that it is a foregone conclusion that so many roads must be closed. I am sure that all or most of us would agree that there are a large number of roads that do not offer much public benefit and are not worth spending money to maintain, and I bet most of us would agree that there may be some that pose a threat to salmon habitat or are simply in the wrong place and present other problems such that they should be erased if possible. But I also believe that it may not be necessary or appropriate to close 75% of the roads on the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest and perhaps not on other Forests I am not so familiar with.
  10. Good one! If you consider going back, think about this (it has a significantly shorter approach than Dreamer): Witch Doctor Wall, on the back side of Exfoliation Dome.
  11. Wisecrack looks beautiful. I'm excited to check out the new guidebook!
  12. Tomorrow there is one of those minimum roads comment meetings in Enumclaw. 11:00 am to 1:30 pm at the Enumclaw Public Library. If you have time, show up and be ready to identify 8 Forest Service roads on the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest that lead to climbing destinations. The 2060 road in Clear Creek near Darrington is a good place to start. Washington Climbers Coalition page on comment process
  13. Nice TR! I think Nooksack is maybe the coolest summit in Washington. Certainly on the top ten. At the summit you feel a long way from home, eh? I'm pretty sure you'll keep climbing. Keep posting!
  14. I don't get the comments about guiding. First of all, I don't think Mr. Goldie sought only to benefit his private business or he certainly would not have posted anything about it here. Second of all, I don't see anything wrong with it even if the new anchors make his job a little easier. To me the important questions concern issues related to how many, where, why and who we think may be "qualified" to place bolts on NEWS. Lastly, I don't get the derisive use of the term "convenience anchors." After Fred and Helmey, who managed to get to the top of at least SEWS and Liberty Bell without any bolts (and to survive the descent), couldn't we call any bolts on any of the descent routes "convenience anchors?" What about fixed slings with rappel rings?" Most or all of those posting here can climb down the standard descent on SEWS without any slings or bolts but probably are going to find it convenient to do one or two rappels. As far as the rap route itself, I personally agree with Off White. I don't think the new descent route was "necessary," but I'm not incensed about it. Next time there I'll bring a single rope and rap that way.
  15. For "The Kone," I think the first two and a half pitches of "Till Broad Daylight" are slightly easier but also more fun. After that, the original Kone route is for sure the way to go. I'd like to look at a link to "Cornucopia" on the right. I think there is probably a four pitch 5.8 climb, more or less straight up, that could be descended with a single 60mm rope. If anybody wants to explore it, let me know.
  16. If you liked Dreamer, I'm assuming you are looking for longer routes and for routes 5.9 or 5.10. For a straight-forward approach and good clean fun, I think Total Soul on Three O'Clock Rock is hard to beat (Silent Running, nearby, is easier and also very good). Exfoliation Dome, with a scrambling approach and a bit more complexity to reach the top and to descend, is well worth a visit. The newer routes left of the West Buttress are all good, getting progressively harder and also including more variety in climbing style as you move from right to left. For more adventure head over to Squire Creek. By the way: if you leave the car by 7:00 a.m., you can climb the west facing routes on Exfoliation Dome and complete the crux pitches before the sun hits them if you are efficient.
  17. I have heard from Forest Service people that there are different funds available for the full decommissioning where there are salmon streams under threat, but a couple of them also tell me there is pressure from certain camps both within and outside the agency toward decommissioning elsewhere as well. I think, too, the Forest Service has some funding that may be available for decommissioning but maybe not simple closure and certainly not maintenance. Also, one ranger type I talked to said that they might in some cases fully decommission maybe the first few hundred yards of the road or portions of it that were otherwise visible from a road that was to remain open and simply abandon the remainder as Chris suggests. I am aware of the Canadian approach and that is kind of what they've done with the road to Green Giant Buttress: it hasn't had any Forest Service work for probably 20 years and maybe more. It remains passable only due to a lot of volunteer effort (like some of the roads up north) and I don't think anybody drives to the "trailhead" where I used to park to go climb Dreamer and Safe Sex. I have worked to keep this road and others like it passable and I can tell you it is brutal work! We talked about the idea of leaving "closed" roads simply "open" but not maintained in last night's meeting. Many people there agreed that it was a better idea than a steel gate. It would allow some degree of continued access, but at least in some cases it would allow it only to people with jeeps, or maybe motorcycles and mountain bikes but it is pretty rough to ride through alder saplings. At least some interest groups would rather see a road converted to a walking trail. If a "closed" road was converted to a walking trail, there might be some places where it would be appropriate to maintain the full width of the road as a walking path. In my view this might be particularly attractive for places that were easily accessible and which serve some attractive destination with a relative short walking distance. I don't really like walking several miles on logging roads through old clearcuts where I used to drive, but I have found it very pleasant to walk on the old carriage road serving the 'Gunks, or similar paths in other places in New England and Europe, where you can walk three or four people next to each other and carry on a conversation, and where you don't have to watch your feet. Our conception of walking trails is, perhaps, narrow. In the "right" location I might favor a gated road that is maintained for walking over a jeep or motorcycle road. As to roads in wilderness, I am not sure but the latest Mt. Hood wilderness addition may actually include a stretch of road or two. Does anybody know?
  18. Fairweather, This current process follows from a travel management rule that was promulgated four or five years ago. It is not tied to any Wilderness expansion mandate as far as I know. In general, I think there is probably little likelihood that many trunk roads are in danger of being identified for closure in this process, but I don't really have real information on this: there are certainly groups that are advocating for closure of these roads at least to the extent that they penetrate near "core" wilderness areas. The roads serving the traditional Darrington area are 2060 and 2065. Road 2040 serves Squire Creek, nearby, where there is also granite rock climbing that is unique in terms of rock quality, scenery, proximity to Puget Sound population centers, etc.
  19. Thanks, Mr. Quarryographer, for turning out! There were a couple of guides there, as well. I didn't know about the request to identify 8 destinations either, and was not quite prepared to do so. I indicated three locations in Clear and Squire Creeks, near Darrington, and Green Creek, Infinite Bliss, Mt. Persis, Bedal Creek, Sunrise Mine Road, and one other. I deliberately sat at a table where I knew nobody. There was a motorcycle guy, a mushroom picker, a mountain biker, a Forest Service ranger, a miner, and me. Interesting to me was that I don't think anyone from logging or fern cutting or other forest industry people were there. One point that I gained in conversation after the event: the Mount Baker Snoqualmie National Forest is closer to population areas than any other National Forest in the country, and it has a very low concentration of forest roads compared to other National Forests. I bet there is some number of roads most of us could agree should not be kept and I'm not advocating that we maintain all of the current roads but we might well argue that, even if 75% of the forest roads in the national inventory are to be cut, it should not be 75% of the roads on this National Forest. I've been thinking about this for some time as we see roads close to the highway closed, one after another, because people dump trash or shoot guns or whatever. Easy access is why these kinds of problems occur but it is also why these roads are important. Looking ahead 10, 20, 50 years from now, I think we should generally seek to maintain roads that are closer to main access arterials and population centers and that we might address some of the police problems through developing increased recreational opportunities on some of them. At the same time it is important to offer some opportunities to access remote and wild places so that people who are not able to take several days for a backpacking trip can access remote and wild places.
  20. By the way: the south face of The Tooth is an awesome climb. There is a reason that it is so popular. Enjoy!
  21. I completely agree with the notion that public lands should be kept accessible for public access. I'm not sure that our parking passes have actually covered the expense of keeping those roads open, though. I think we need to find a way to express a coordinated support for funding, and in this matter I see an unusual opportunity to bring a diverse group of user groups and segments from both right and left leaning political groups to the same side of the table. The impact of having 75% of the forest roads closed would be HUGE.
  22. Fairweather! A blast from the past. This comment process is important but, in addition, I hope to generate broader discussion. It only makes sense that they can't maintain all of the roads but at the same time it'd be a shame to see such the Forest Service road system taken apart on purpose.
  23. Trip: Darrington: Three O'Clock Rock - 'Till Broad Daylight to The Kone Date: 7/20/2013 Trip Report: I advertised on cc.com, and what do you know: RockDan replied. I hadn't climbed with him for 5 or 10 years. We went to Three O'Clock Rock, in Darrington. For moderate granite rock climbing, near Puget Sound, this is the place to go and it has been a place dear to my heart for many years. Dan suggested we head for "The Kone," an old classic. We did two and a half pitches of the route "Till Broad Daylight" to get to two and a half pitches of "The Kone." The first pitch of 'Till Broad Daylight is really fun! Slab climbing and big knobs lead to three places where you have to step up over small overlaps, and they require a bit of prodding and planning. Dan styled it. As I left the ground his dog started to whine about being left behind but he figured it out: he wasn't going. We continued with the second pitch of Daylight, more slabby than the first pitch, and it required some more significant gear placements. We then started out the next pitch with the first bolts of Daylight and then switched over to The Kone (more knobs). Two long diagonal pitches of very small knobs followed. Look closely and you can find something to step on. From the top of the climb, we rappelled straight down to the ground, on the route called "Tidbits." There we found Dan's dog, hanging out with another party. They may have made the mistake of petting him. Otherwise, I'm sure, he would have stayed where we left him. This crag is great. Washington will definitely be worse off if the road in Clear Creek is closed due to budget cuts! Read about access issues on Washington Climbers Coalition website. Gear Notes: Most climbs in Darrington require a rack and 2 ropes for rappels. Approach Notes: Drive up forest road that may not serve a Prius or other low clearance vehicle but is otherwise fine. Hike thirty minutes up the trail, pass some really big trees, and you are there (sandals are not recommended, but it is a nice walk). Views from the climbs are awesome!
  24. The next meeting (there have already been a couple) is tomorrow night, in Issaquah: Tuesday, July 23, from 5:30 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Issaquah Main Fire Station office 175 Newport Way NW, Issaquah, WA 98027 Again: be sure to point to roads 2060 and 2065, serving the traditional Darrington climbing area, and 2040, serving Squire Creek, a few miles west, on a map. These roads serve some remarkable and unique granite rock climbing as well as the very scenic Squire Creek Pass / Eightmile Creek hiking trail. The 2060 and 2065, in particular, were targeted for possible closure even before the current comment process. And, meanwhile, go up there and enjoy the climbing!
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