pope

Applying a top-down method you are far more likely to.....excuse me......what we have as a result of top-down bolting is this: Try to convince me that rap bolting results in better bolt placement. Every one of these placements is inferior to how they would have been placed by ground-up climbers. Why? Because not one of these bolts belongs on this little top-rope cliff, and ground-up climbers wouldn't have bothered with it. I am.

Now here's an example of a route which, according to a former Devil's Tower ranger, was bolted on the lead from stances. Must say the results were excellent.

Please provide an example of either Raindawg or Pope promoting their generation as better than any other. I don't think it exists. What we're promoting is a restrained, ground-up approach to bolting that would provide rock climbing enjoyment for many generations, instead of the grid-bolted mess that we currently have. BTW, I started climbing just as rap bolting/sport climbing were being introduced in the U.S. I didn't have any traditions to protect. As a young man, I analyzed the arguments and made a decision. Also, climbers who started the same time as I (or even before) are the ones who adopted and promoted sport climbing and they are largely responsible for the mess we have today. You seem to forget that sport climbing has been here for several decades. I would suggest that many young climbers have no idea that other options exist.

OW, you're correct to say that the photograph provides less than complete information, and that my observations/condemnations may have been made too quickly. But I'm probably right and you know it. "The hat however is Poofterelle, a yarn hand spun from academic navel lint by starving interns in a grade-slavery scandal you'll read all about in the next National Geographic." Nice! I'll have to read your long-winded essays more carefully from now on. One may actually find a few diamonds after sifting through tons of coal.

Not bad, not bad at all. But I'm more impressed with Sean Courage, who claims some kind of FKT for a RTID (round-trip including driving) on the Denny Tooth, starting from and returning to the UW rock. Accoridng to Sean, lots of climbers hike Mt Si for a trainer, but he "works out" on the Tooth. Which is just amazing, given that most of us consider a conquest of the Tooth to be the achievement of a lifetime. Contact Sean for specifics (he's probably Steven Sea Gal or Richard Noggin) if you hope to compete.

What didja get your butt kicked on this time?

Exactly. Either agree with Raindawg and Pope, or STFU, because you are "unqualified" to participate in the "discussion" (what a misnomer). As I said before, these fanatics can not comprehend how they can clearly be so RIGHT in such a clear-cut position as theirs - one for which there is no other possible valid position to have. So, STFU, everyone, listen to what Dawg and Pope have to say (yet again), kow-tow, kiss their feet (and ass) and agree with them absolutely. That's your choice. Allah akbar! Exactly.

Nothin wrong with that. Right guys? Dunno, haven't done the route. How dodgy is that block that forms the right hand side of the crack? I mean, that Smith mud is solid and all, but the photo doesn't provide enough information to answer your question Bug. Anyone who has done the route have an opinion? Are you kidding? The little creep with the punk-assed hemp hat has clipped a bolt higher than his knees, drilled next to a perfectly good crack, and he's eating his rope, no doubt in preparation for clipping yet another bullshit bolt. For added safety, maybe the route should also feature a plastic hold or two, which OW would probably defend by asking, "Dunno, how dodgy is that foothold?"

you have a wayyyyy over-blown sense of self-importance, fanboi. I know, I know....I wouldn't wanna be associated with most of the A-holes in this thread either, but your contributions to this thread do little to distinguish you from them.

BTW, impressive pervasion of F-bombs in that post......thought I was back at the high school.

hey fanboi, you are an ignorant fool who lives in a fantasy world. get a life already, seriously. who gives a flying fuck what bachar did or any fucker did with climbing? do your own damn thing and enjoy it, instead of speculating about other climbers and their motivations. for all i know, bachar was an arrogant prick back in his heyday, only concerned about one-up-manship and the like; it seems like he changed, but i really don't give a damn (about him as a climber; him as a father and a human being: that's a different story). go ahead and live in 1972 or 1690 or whatever fuck year you worship, but quite honestly i'm tired of hearing about your uphill walks to school through snow in both directions. I brought up Bachar as a response to those who suggested sport climbing was necessary to get strong and climb stiff grades. Bachar (among others) clearly demonstrated that the idea is false.

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers. I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing. You know, Pope, not only have I always had complete respect for John Bachar's skills, boldness, and vision, but the truth outside of this filthy sandbox that we are all playing around in here is that I happen to agree with everything you just wrote. In case you didn't notice- in fact you didn't- my post had nothing whatsoever to do with Bachar and everything to do with poking you and Raindawg in the eye just to see if I could produce an emotional response. Like Pavlov's dog, looks like it worked again. So in short I guess this answers your question- I'm a real prick. Here are the Sea Gal posts which "had nothing to do with Bachar": "In honor of Johnny (he liked it when I called him that, that was just between us friends) I declare the new purest ethic is if you fall while leading, the only fair means of ascent is free solo, or else you're Richard Simmons." "Better to die than weight the rope, everyone. Best tell your loved ones to prepare to celebrate your imminent martyrdom." Again, you're either ignorant or you're a prick. Probably 50/50 of each. At any rate, evidence mounts to support the idea that you aren't qualified to comment on Bachar, bolting ethics, or much of anything for that matter. You're more than qualified to run your fat mouth, placing you properly in the company of KK, Kevbone, ElJefe, TrashCan, and that miserable SOB who calls himself ChodaBoy. I'm ready to assign Kimmo to your squad but he deserves 1/2 a chance to demonstrate that I've misjudged him.

"Hi, the name's John, and I'm a hot-shit climber when Dave Burdick is dragging me up a helichopper-accessed rock in Alaska. You wanna know what I think? I'll betcha do, since I'm a celebrity. Well, sport climbing made me a stud and it will work for you too. In fact, there's no other way to get strong, so we need lots of bolts my friends. But I don't like 'em in the mountains unless I happen to be mixed climbin' a modern despo." At times, Pope, it seems that you're sincerely interested in getting people to understand and embrace your point of view on these subjects. But then, below the belt posts like the above made in response to a solid guy trying to offer a mature point for discussion absolutely kill your credibility. But hey, I'm a real prick, so off I go! I posted that nonsense in order to solicit an emotional response. Guess it worked.

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers. I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing. blahblahblahblah Aren't you the little pud puller who muffed the Father Figure account just a couple of pages back? Go smoke another joint and get your facts straight.

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers. I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing.

that's it, donald, hide yer head in your ummm sand. and if that doesn't work? "I'm not playing with YOU anymore!" Come to think of it, I do remember a guy who called himself Kimmo who would show up at the UW rock and fall off my problems. But the Kimmo I remember never would have degraded himself by joining the mob attacking my friend and his profession. He would have been tempted, exhausted from the effort of defending sport climbing for 25 pages, feeling threatened by the realization that his favorite recreation equates to a manifest destiny whereby garbage is distributed to every square inch of steep rock on this planet. But.....the Kimmo I remember would have held himself to a higher standard. The Kimmo I remember would have been disgusted by this behavior, and similarly with the offensive Special Olympics poster a few pages back. Oh....hey.....maybe this is the guy I remember. Ever figure out how to do the Razor without bumping your right hand at the crux? Anyway, most of the guys who participate in this thread aren't as classy as you are (or once were). You should apologize.

he would say "hey look. I can pink point anything"! You should research the history behind this climb: father figure at joshua tree. scott cosgrove route. bachar worked it, redpointed it, then soloed it after getting it dialed. straightup sporto method to get to the soloing bit. Not quite accurate. After one fall, and pissed that he hadn't flashed a route put up in what he considered poor style, he immediately soloed it. Quite a statement.

Oh, so shiny bolts don't look so nice against brown, and we ain't gots no brown rocks in Kimmo's backyard. So Kimmo, who has a sense for collaboratin' colors like nobody I know, says them shiny bolts go just fine with what we got 'round here. How convenient. I have news for you, Kimmo. Ugly bolts is ugly bolts. Ugly knows no color. Most of what's ugly about 'em is the story they tell about how rock climbing has devolved since Alan Watts and Christian Griffith convinced little pud pounders like you that climbing 5.13 after having all the answers handed to you while hanging off a bolt was somehow better than what was happenin' here already.

So you're a Kenny G fan. I hear he can play not only while blowing, but also while sucking. Sucking and blowing, blowing and sucking. A natural candidate for the next sport climbing sensation.

Sounds like you're getting ready to say something. Well, go ahead. Get on with it.

"Do you normally choose to so glibly hang your ass out to be cut by posing to pontificate on subjects you're ignorant of? Jesus, man, you're not at home where you can answer the door with one hand while scratching your crack through your thread-bare boxers with the other." Sounds like you're getting ready to say something. Well, go ahead. Get on with it.

he would say "hey look. I can pink point anything"! You should research the history behind this climb:

Exactly, which is why Miles would have quickly grown disinterested in sport climbing, the musical equivalent of playing Come to Jesus in whole notes. Allow me to illustrate: Sport Climbing = Trad Climbing = Any questions?

"Sport climbing is the only way to get strong, and that justifies our trail of trash." What would Johnny say?

"Hi, the name's John, and I'm a hot-shit climber when Dave Burdick is dragging me up a helichopper-accessed rock in Alaska. You wanna know what I think? I'll betcha do, since I'm a celebrity. Well, sport climbing made me a stud and it will work for you too. In fact, there's no other way to get strong, so we need lots of bolts my friends. But I don't like 'em in the mountains unless I happen to be mixed climbin' a modern despo."