pope

Terrible show, I'm just a big fan of Frank. I was cracking up when he grabbed his nose before diving into the sea.

Thanks OW, I thoroughly enjoyed that. That kid is a stud! Sounds like he's got his head on straight as well: "John Bachar’s idea of ethics and style will forever be remembered and I hope that all climbers understand that climbing is simply starting on the ground and finishing at the top."

This was a pretty interesting post, thanks Pope. I'll address a couple of your questions. Why would someone bother putting in bolts after they've top roped something? Well, even if you've top roped a route, it feels different to lead it, that's one thing. The other is that when done right, what's left behind is a route that can offer a challenging onsite or redpoint to others, by which I mean other people can walk up and have that experience you love, just minus the "find the gear bit" if it's an otherwise unprotectable face. Finding the rests, working out sequences, moving up, backing down to a rest to recover, heading back out, it's still an engaging chess game even without a gear placement on the route. You're right, you can't have that if you've top roped a route beforehand, but others can. I don't know why others put up routes this way, because its a hell of a lot of hard work. I can tell you about why I do it sometimes. I have a private climbing area that is just full of examples. The routes often exist as top ropes for awhile, a bunch of us discuss whether its worth setting up as a lead route, bolt location often happens by group conversation, taking into account things like where are the reasonable stances, what will you hit, and how to maintain an engaging route that merits repeat ascents yet someone can come up and onsight. Frankly, I think the first ascent process on this sort of thing is really fuzzy: who's the FA? The person who conceived of the line? The person who cleaned off anything loose? The person who first top roped it? The person who put in the bolts (often involves several people), the first person to redpoint it? It's all kind of silly and unimportant to me, because you're right, compared to walking up to a blank slate with no knowledge of what's there and climbing that unknown line successfully, the process I described is just playing around, no big deal. Out in Tenino anyway, I think the first climb of a route that has any significance is the first time (well, every time actually) someone walks up cold and onsights a route, and that always impresses the hell out of me. The sort of climb you describe is analogous to a flash of artistic genius, a peak moment when skill, imagination, doubt, and experience combine for a truly memorable event. Its damned awesome to experience, no argument about that. A sport route done well is something different, is an exercise in craftsmanship. Craft usually gets dissed by artists, but mastery and creation are present as well. The making of something durable and solid that others can appreciate for their own use is a different sort of reward. You've tried to explain it away as about ego and getting your name in the book, because you're viewing it from an artist's bias, which is a more selfish thing (note, it's okay to be selfish sometimes, I'm being descriptive not dismissive). Therefore, you think the FA on a sport route must be engaged in some pursuit of selfish pleasure, fame and glory, or whatever. You should consider that perhaps many are merely in pursuit of an interesting thing done well, they're craftsmen. Yeah, I know we can cherry pick some obvious contradictions to my hypothesis, but if I'm wrong, why are so many sport first ascensionists so damn shy? Where are they boasting about their glorious achievements? Guidebooks of yore were much more upfront about who did the FA, the brilliant artist wants full credit for their work of genius. Nowadays you're lucky to find a list in the back of the book, a move I believe was done to "diminish" ego as a motivation. It's kind of a pity too, because as in any craft, not all craftspeople are equal and some build inferior work. That is true of sport routes too, and with a little experience with workmanship, knowing who put up a route can tell you a bit about what to expect or watch out for. Oh, and you had another question for the old farts about red, pink, and brown points. I'm sure you are fully cognizant of those distinctions, but I'll perform as invoked. Red we know is the climbing of a route without weighting the protection. Pink has been discarded by the elite as a designation these days, but it meant that all the draws were pre-installed on the bolts or the gear pre-placed, so all you had to do was clip your rope through the biner. I think it was a good bit of honesty about one's ascent, because if you're climbing at your limit, and a route is really hard for you, its definitely easier to just clip the draw or piece rather than place it yourself. People assert that the hardest routes today are much too hard today to clip the draw to the bolt and now call it a red point as well, but I think it just dumbs down the definition. Brown point is a derogatory term for just getting up a route by any means necessary, pulling gear, hanging, and generally pitching a fit. Used in a sentence, you would say, "I saw Ivan out at Beacon today and he made an ugly ugly brown point on Blownout." Rap bolting can produce excellent climbs, no doubt. I've done a couple of bolted routes at Index which I know were rap bolted and I thought they were superb. My problem with rap bolting is that it's too easy. Routes tend to go in quickly and frequently, and anybody with a power drill and fresh batteries can do it. The result is exponentially increasing bolt density. Bolts tend to grow like weeds, and propogate just as effectively. As the number of purely bolted routes increases, so does the number of climbers who are attracted to these climbs. Some fraction of these climbers will then buy a drill and the cycle continues. I understand the attraction. You don't have to carry a rack, you don't have to fiddle with gear and worry that it won't hold. Every five feet there's another anchor that will hold 10,000 pounds which can make a guy feel very brave. I get it. But what's not increasing exponentially is the amount of easily accessed rock suitable for climbing, and so grid bolting is inevitable. What's worse is that some climbers love the convenience of bolts so much, they'd prefer to see a bolt next to a crack rather than have to carry a large cam or trust a #3 RP. More bolts, followed by more climbers, followed by more bolts until just a couple of decades into this, an entire generation of climbs seems to have no problem with grid bolting, bolting routes that could be easily top roped, bolting next to cracks. Anybody who questions the current bolt density or blames it on rap bolting gets called "insane" by goofy guys like Kimmo.

Uh, Pink? That's kind of disgusting. it's alright, i'll fully regret it in the morning... Regret what? Not beating your wife? You're not really that drunk unless she can beat the shit out of you.

Hey Little Richard, you seem to think you're extra clever by posting my real name all over these boards. Let's find out who you are. What are you hiding?

didn't i hear something about high-school in an earlier post of yours? btw, a good variation you might try: match the pocket on The Razor, then to the top. good times! No way. You can't match the pocket and there's no way you're gonna summit from there. Show me some video. I'll buy you your favorite beer if you can do that.

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weasel dust

This use to be my belief and practice. If I went up to try it and fell, even if it later became a hard 5.11-5.12, it didn't matter and I walked away. (this was generally always cracks as I don't care for face climbing on bolts generally, it has to be totally unique or special) I don't mind toproping anything though, but they use to be different things for me. I am no longer that way and often tr then lead now, it's all good, just be honest with our policies and what does that matter anyway? Pope, you didn't answer the question on the Gorge trail...would you not find that fun to ride? which is why there's a distinction between "onsight" and "redpoint"- with the latter you did it clean but with prior knowledge. as long as people are honest about how they did it, I don't see how it matters. If someone chooses to walk away from a climb if they fall and never go back, that's their business, and IMHO, their loss. But in the end such rules are just different ways of making a game out of it. It's contrived according to one's aesthetics and biases and if you turn it into a religion that you feel the need to slag on others to reinforce, then that's just dumb. Pope sounds like he doesn't think it "counts" if you lead it cleanly after having tr'd it or otherwise failed to lead it previously- maybe I'm wrong. But the only concession I'll make it that such an ascent is not as impressive and pure as an onsight ascent. But you only get 1 chance to onsight- I think to walk away is just limiting the experience and there is great fulfillment in learning a route after much toil. And I do think it can allow one's onsight grade to increase concurrently... Couple comments. I always tried to lead something before top-roping it because I thought it was really exciting and you only get one chance. Everything is new, nothing is certain, and your brain is working just as hard as your body, trying to read the route, find the gear, find the rests. I just love that shite. But I completely understand that other folks have different ideas about what's fun and safe and impressive.....or whatever motivates you. No problem. I don't think I've ever criticized somebody for top-roping a climb. My question is, for those who are developing routes, why would you then leave a trail of trashy bolts all over the rock? Seems like you've squeezed most of the fun out of it, so why not call it a day and leave it as a top-rope climb? Also back in the '80s sport climbers would distinguish between several styles of leading a climb, based on the amount of previewing and also how the protection was rigged. There was the red point, the pink point, and the brown point. I'm sure some old fart like Bill or OW will log on later and educate us about the subtle distinctions between these designations.

Actually most of the credit goes to Scotty Hopkins. He spied it and he and I cleaned it. Can't remember who got the first lead. The bolt is probably appropriate and was initially drilled from a good stance. When the Fixe bolt (supposedly 3/8) didn't fit the hole, we borrowed a power drill (on the advice of Jim Phillips) and enlarged the hole to 1/2", which was done on rap (by me or Dave Bale). We thought Jim's advice was appropriate since the hole was already drilled. Another solution would have been to return with a bolt that was actually 3/8 instead of the weird Fixe bolt which must have been a metric dimension.

Bill, I haven't read your post yet, but the answer is probably yes....I love riding trails as long as land managers permit it. Most trails (at lower elevation) on this side of the hill grow over in a couple of years when neglected, so I don't see the harm. Now let's suppose that a group of mountain bikers have different ideas about a given trail. By that I mean, one group wants the trail to include mandatory 6-foot drops and high-ball skinnies, while another group wants to cut down some trees to straighten the trail, while still another group wants to dump a bunch of crushed rock in the wet areas, and no group wishes to see the modifications that one of the other group desires. What's the solution? LEAVE IT AS NATURAL AS POSSIBLE BECAUSE IT'S A SHARED TRAIL. Analogy complete.

Far as I can remember. I've certainly top-roped things, but nothing I ever imagined myself being able to lead in the future. That spoils the fun. I always trusted that either I could adequately protect the route or recognize that it was dangerous and then just back off. I've done plenty of that. BTW I hate falling....don't really trust the equipment enough.

he seems pretty damn smart. so I'd hope I am as "dumb" as he. Kimmo, looks like you've gotta new groupie! Betcha getta BJ outa your new recruit. But seriously, if I'm collecting a guide's fee, how is it that I need a guide? how many sportos did you berate this weekend, "watchdog"? don't want to let anyone have any fun, now do you? Without sport climbing, people can't have fun? I'm having a great time!

And that's because they're hypocrites. No, that's not fair, I think they just haven't fully thought through their position. I suspect that our views are truly much closer than they are apart. That's some kind of stretch. Maybe next you'll note that every time I wash my hands I'm killing bacteria under my fingernails.

In that case, they're probably putting the bolts in the wrong place, because after top-roping (which they will undoubtably do....that's what rap bolters do), they won't possibly know what leading above protection with no prior knowledge of the route entails.

he seems pretty damn smart. so I'd hope I am as "dumb" as he. Kimmo, looks like you've gotta new groupie! Betcha getta BJ outa your new recruit. But seriously, if I'm collecting a guide's fee, how is it that I need a guide?

figgered you needed a guide, muthafucka. KK, are you really as dumb as Kimmo?

Define recently... judging by the picture I saw posted, this solo was done back when he and Dawg were slogging up-hill (both ways) in 3 feet of snow to get to the (unbolted) crag. No, no....that was a LONG time ago. Not sure I'm right, but maybe it was more recent than the time you did it.

No, no....that was a LONG time ago. Not sure I'm right, but maybe it was more recent than the time you did it.

And since it's impossible to leave no trace, let's just wreck it some more. Listen, Jefe, believe it or not, before sport climbing and grid bolting, climbers managed to have a dandy time and left a fraction of the trace/mess that is common at just about every cliff today. Your argument seems to suggest that since we can't possibly have zero impact, anything goes. i can't imagine anyone ever had fun climbing with a judgmental, pompous ass like you, pope. your stifling dogmatism and rigid self-righteousness couldn't possibly yield anything that anyone would deem "fun". Try the PARTNERS FORUM. Sorry but I'm busy, unless you can pay my guide's fee.

That's perverted. Try it with a bottle of wine next time.....maybe the tree will say yes to your "knotty" desires.

Redpoint = whole bunch of aid climbing followed by a top-roping with a little bit of slack.

You omit the era/practice of nailing the hell out of cracks with the resultant scarring - leaving a substantial "trace" in the scarred lines. That practice altered routes, visual appearance, and the rock itself, comparatively, as much as anything (including bolted lines) that came after the '70's decade revelation/revolution of "clean climbing". Thanks for the history lesson. In other news, the ocean is wet and little bears play in the woods.

And since it's impossible to leave no trace, let's just wreck it some more. Listen, Jefe, believe it or not, before sport climbing and grid bolting, climbers managed to have a dandy time and left a fraction of the trace/mess that is common at just about every cliff today. Your argument seems to suggest that since we can't possibly have zero impact, anything goes.

Well done, Dru! And thanks for the detailed report. I'll get on this one yet.