ryland_moore

Kevbone, make your friends read these posts. Maybe then they will realize that they are not helping but hindering the climbing community by doing what they are doing with the media blitz. Glorified for stupidity, and wearing crampons? Why? Who wears crampons in a snowstorm descending a low-angled snow slope? barkernews, I saw several of your live coverages on the news during this event. You complain that people do not respect you and our profession, but you are part of the problem with regards to the complaints being stated on this thread. You stated several times that the MLU is what saved them and never once addressed the fact that the people lacked the experience to be there and created the problem themselves. You never stated that the initial group was located through the use of the GPS, or address the fact that they were not able to navigate with the GPS unit they possessed. You folded to the media hype, jumped on the bandwagon, and did not once stand up for the climbing community. Plus, every report from KATU I've seen has not once addressed the climbing community's perspective with regards to this incident or with regards to the proposed Bill on carrying MLUs. The worst part abot it is the media is looking at this website for information, but only chooses to print what will make a good story and ends up distorting the truth of what really happened. If you are a climber than why don't you act more like Fox and be "Fair and Balanced." If you are stating that you are a member of the climbing community (Different then I am a climber), then you should provide information and interviews that address the climbing community's perspective. Maybe Dmuja takes it a little too far ith his toungue in cheek remarks, but I would say that you are not a part of the solution ut a part of the problem. Sorry for the dose of reality and const4ructive criticism. if you want to meet in person and talk about these issues over a beer, I live in No Po as well.

Iain thanks for the update. That is excellent that we had so many groups opposing the MLU requirement. Can you let me know how to submit written testimony for this? Thanks.

Cindy, he does have a point. There are no crevasses or rockfall where they were. They were just above a wide open snow slope that has never avalanched to my knowledge and just above the ski resort. They were not up on the more technical areas. The only reason they may have roped up was in case they lost each other in a whiteout, which I may be able to understand (now there is some speculation KevBone!), but it still pulled everyone down, including the dog, which was also tied to the rope or one of the climbers! I may have done the same thing in that instance, but the fact is they should have been able to get off themselves before any of this occurred. In response to one of the other posters, I fully supported the three in December and it had nothing to do with their deaths. I was in support of their ascent, their skills, and their reasoning for being there all beforew the outcome became real. I could have easily been up there as the weather was so stellar and conditions on the N. Face were ideal. Something happened, that we will never know about, that prevented them from descending from the summit under clear skies and they stayed one night too long. I would haze someone just as much whether they died or not. I would expect the same hazing from my friends, climbing partners, and everyone on this board if I screwed up. And I have. My shit stinks just as much as the next. A little taste of constructive criticism and reality check is a good thing and it can act as a wake-up call to most people who may not realize the problems they created by being selfish and blaze about their actions. If there was not any criticism from clmbers to these guys and gals, then maybe they would be educated to think that every time they got in a tough spot they could simply pull out the MLU, prematurely even, and expect a rescue when they should rely on their own sills and instincts to self-rescue. As for this weekend, the campers new bad weather was coming in and chose to stay anyways. Then, once they got into trouble, because of lack of poor judgement and lack of skills necessary to descend, they placed themselves in a position where part of the group fell into White River canyon. Instead of descending down White River Canyon to the snowpark (injury may have prevented this)the groups, now separated, pulled out their trusty MLU and waited to be rescued. Two totally different scenarios entirely. Hopefully they have come to realize the true risk they put themselves and every volunteer and rescuer in from their lack of judgement and care-free attitude towards a Cascades winter storm. I bet they will not take things so lightly next time and fortunately they will be around to live and learn. Some people are not so fortunate.

That is the problem with the proposed Bill. There is no enforcement clause. No fines will be assessed for not cairrying an MLU! So they are spensing all of thi money to propose a bill that will have no teeth and wasting tax payers money doing it. I already wrote my Congressman. I was surprised no one stepped up to get a petition started last night at PSU for the PMR show. I coutldn't make it and was stuck at the office, but the liberals are always out there getting signatures for something! Climbers are stereotypically labeled as far left and activist-minded. How come we can't get something started on this? Too busy smoking a bowl to get up off the couch and away from the computers to get people to sign a petition? I'd be willing to volunteer a few hours down at Pioneer Courthouse Square to get signatures. I'd also be willing to help start a chain e-mail that every Oregon voter could sign electronically.....

Until Mt. Hood has a team of climbing rangers stationed on the mountain the entire climbing season, will fly my shit (literally) off the mountain, and will provide up to the minute route information, weather conditions, and staffed with MDs at several locations on the mountain, then you cannot compare Mt. Hood to Denali...... I still have yet to pay for a NW Forest Pass EXCEPT at Timberline. - Any unmaintained NW Forest Pass Zone, I simply put up my window decal statingI am here for other reasons than recreation. I have yet to get a ticket.......Even if I did I would not pay it..... I did here a report on the radio that climbers yesterday in Salem spoke out against the Bill to carry MLUs.

RedNose, where did you hear the details of this? I have heard about it but not in such graphic terms as youdescrhibe. Article or citing for this? this is absolutely crazy and cannot belive that the national media has not picked this up. Just a ew months ago you couldn't turn on the tv without seeing something on the Duke rape case, but now when the tide is turned you see nothing from the national media. Crazy!

KB, this is not based on speculation. This is based on statemnts made by your friends and from information collected from the SAR/MR folks. What is so difficult about understanding that there was a serious lapse in judgement? That is not speculation. it is fact. if they knew what they were doing, then they would not have neded up where they did. Bottom line. If you carry a GPS then use it. The batteries were fine as that is how the PMR crew found the group of five originally. Even if they forgot to get a waypoint on the way up, knowing that bad weather was coming in, and bad weather goes with white-out conditions, how hard would it be to drop down 400 ft. to take a way point from the top of the Palmer? Not hard at all. Instead they showed lack of common sense and skills necessary to be out there by trying to navigate by compass in a white-out. If they had the orienteering experience, they would have known that this is next to impossible to pull off with no fixed bearing/point to look at and use while descending. They may have been prepared with the gear, but like I said earlier, just because you have it doesn't mean it will do you a damn bit of good. In your terms, kevbone, if you bought a shiny new set of quickdraws, does that automatically make you able to properly lead a sport climb, or belay, or just because you have a shiny new rack, do you automatically know how to place gear, set anchors, or simul-climb with your partner? I'm just saying that they were obviously prepared, and maybe without the MLU, since they did not how to use the rest of their gear properly, they may still be up there. But this is not about speculating and it is clear they got in over their heads because they did not follow the most basic of mountaineering principals and did not listen to the most basic warning signs regarding weather, which they admitted, they knew about.

Kevbone, I have been reading your stuff for a while now, but this is the first time I've ever commented directly to you. You are clearly in the same boat as these idiots who took time, resources, and placed rangers and volunteers in danger because "shit happens." They put themsleves deliberately into a situation that they could not get themselves out of and had no idea what they were doing up there. If they had, they could have simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline. Instead they acted in a lazy manner, their judgement was clouded by something, whether it was the sunshine on Saturday or kb, who knows. But they did not take the mountain, those less experienced, seriously and those that rely on the ones who are pretending to have the experience to be up there are in jeapardy (dog included). I am sure if someone had died or was permanently injured or even the dog died, I don't think you would still be saying, "Shit happens." I am surprised you weren't up there with them.....would be quite fitting with the lack of judgement shown on behalf of these snow campers and gives even more fuel for Legislators without a clue to impose new laws on a small group.

I think this is an awesome idea. I spoke on the radio tonight voicing my opinion against any legislation but cannot make it down to Salem for public comment. Anyone in Salem on this board that can go over there to give the climbers a voice? I wrote to my State Representative, but she has not replied. Everyone on this thread needs to do this. This Bill is nothing more than a knee jerk reaction that is unenforceable, takes precious dollars away from an already strapped State budget, and will do very little to reduce SAR rescues and costs. I wonder if it will even save any additional lives that could be saved by using sound judgement and other means out of the ten essentials. It may even put more people in harms way and give people a false sense of security that if I go into the mountains and carry one of these, I will be rescued anyway so I will push it. It creates a false safety net that the State cannot provide, staff, or fund. I would like to see the proposed budget, what it will cost and then what is the benefit and how many people will benefit from this in the climbing community. Becasue that is all it will affect when dealing with the 10,000 ft. elevation issue...

Will MLU's be available? Maybe the State can try the "honor system" like the City of Portland did with it's yellow bicycles idea. They just put out about 20 yellow bikes for anyone to ride arlound on and had certain bike racks you could return the bikes to on an honor system. Within a week, all bikes were gone. You'd see a homeless man riding one every so often....

Wha???? Hundreds up people each weekend used to climb Hood in the 1930's and earlier during the summer. Founding climbers?

Thanks Cluck. As a member of SAR, do you think that the Legislature should pass a law requiring people to carry MLUs above 10,000 ft? Another observation Since this party was below 10,000' they would not have been required to carry an MLU.

I have yet to see a rescque scenario where an MLU was the sole reason for a rescue. Iain had some information on a previous post about a month ago, but it appeared that it was not the only reason why the climber was rescued. I would also like to know if SAR was notified first becasue of the cell phone calls by the climbers or the fact that the MLU was triggered. Did SAR only know that the MLU was going off becasue of a cell phone call? Like others have said, the MLU Lsignals hav to be monitored by humans and if no one is watching then they will not know a signal has been triggered. Same thing with the guy from Lake O and the woman from HR injured earlier this year. He triggered his MLU but also had a cell phone and a doctor who crossed his path while descending. The MLU did not start the rescue, the doctor and the cell phone did.

Yes, but they were using their cell phones and if they actually did have a GPS unit as discussed, they could have read off the GPS their exact location to the rescuers.....Regardless, there was no need for an MLU to be used in this rescue scenario and it did not provide them with any new information that the rescue team could not have garnered from what the climbers were carrying already.

Yeah, we were flying so fast that we missed it but doubled back before trekking in there!

I had my ACL and meniscus replaced recently(ACL in December 05)and meniscus in March '05. I tore the meniscus while heading into Mowich side of Rainier. Had to hop out all the way from the saddle above the glacier to the TH. It tore because I was missing my ACL, which I tore on Denali in '03 but nevIer knew about it (I heard the pop skiing down from 11k to 9,800 to pick up a cache but kept climbing). the meniscus tore due to lack of support from no ACL. Anyway, when I got the meniscus fixed, I took many recs. from friends who were skiers, climbers, and snowboarders, plus runners and bikers. Overwhelmingly they recommended the Portland Knee Clinic. These guys were awesome! With the meniscus surgery, I was actually dancing for St. Patrick's day one week after the surgery. The ACl surgerer was more intense and painful, but my doc wanted me moving around on crutches within 5 days post surgery and in the gym 10 days after the surgery. he really pushed me. I had the patella ACL surgery. This was recommended to me by my doc becasue of how active I was. He said that if I wanted a quick recovery that this was the best way to go. Hamstring version takes a lot longer to recover. Cadaver you do have a chance of rejection (not sure how this works becasue no blood flow but that is what they said) My first night in the gym I met a guy who had ACL surgery over a yeaw ago who had the hamstring hsurgery and he said he was on cruthes for three months and never got into the gym until after 5 months. He could not walk normally for 4 monts and was only able to run after 6 months. I on the other hand was already training for a half ironman by January, and running up to 10 miles by end of February. The only down fall with a patella tendon surgery is that the knee can be sore and it will be difficult to ever remain on your knees for a long period of time. I didn't care about this and it has not affected me since. It is sore from time to time, but doesn't affect my climbing or training for triathlon. A good doctor is key. I would go to whomever the Seattle Sonics use. The Portland Knee Clinic is who the Trailblazers use as well. Good luck!

I understand about taking a compass bearing and then having difficulty staying on it in a whiteout, but the GPS would have prevented this if they had taken a point reading at Timberline. I have this stored in my GPS, so every time I am up there, I can get back to Timberline. If they had a track on the way up, then they could have easily followed it back and never would have ended up close to white river canyon. Even if they forgot to take a reading at Timberline, someone could have easily dropped down to the top of the Palmer lift and taken a point there, then followed the chair lift back down. I've had to do this several times when I couldn't tell rwhat was up or down in a whiteout and vis was down to 30 ft. with no depth perception at all. Mistakes were obviously made and a carefree attitidue seems to have been in play. It was awesome on Saturday, burt all climbers know that weather can turn on a dime in the Cascades, plu s a large system was shown moving in late Saturday. I think there is a difference between being an optimist vs. being a realist in mountaineering during the winter. The margin of error can mean huge consequences being an optimistic is what is costing a ton of money and placing rescuers and volunteers in harms way. Having gear does not make you safe. Knowing how to use it can. Are you one of the 5 who were "rescued" last night?

That Place rocks!

Good call. I probably overstated that part. I should have said something to the likes of "It could be construed that the party of 8 may have relied on something other than sound judgement and that by carrying MLUs, they may have had a false sense of security, but until the party is back and interviews are conducted we won't know the whole truth. However, it does seem ironic to me that they were carrying MLUs and headed up in incliment weather, full-well knowing the dangers and did not observe the obvious warning signs available to them on Saturday."

I am not saying that an MLU is being advertised as preventing an accident but in this case, it seems that the party used it as a false sense of security. They chose to carry an MLU over one of the most basic 10 essentials a map and compass. Or even better, a GPS. If they had been carrying the latter, there would have been no need for an MLU as they would have returned to Timberline without incident and the party of three would have never fallen over a cliff/cornice to begin with. Plus, hey headed up in incliment weater or decided not to head down before incliment weather arrived (dependinig on when they went up - Friday or Saturday). Just all around bad judgement. But I think that the MLU should not be praised in this situation or the party carrying them, but that it should be looked at to see if the party relied on them and decided to head up in bad weather because they had there "safety net". I do not trust them and will never carry one regardless of the law and will rely on my GPS and cell phone in case something really bad happens, but will mainly rely on sound judgement and my internal knowledge to carry me through a bad situation. I don't rely on my avi tranceiver when venturing into the backcountry to tell me if conditions are safe to go skiing, so why would I rely on an MLU to save me in a situation that I got myself into in the first place. I wouldn't even carry an MLU is it were handed out for free at Timberline. Just my opinion.

I have to agree with you guys as well. The weather forecast for Saturday was always great all last week, with weather deteriorating late Saturday and bad all day Sunday. Why anyone went up there unless to take laps and get a workout under the chair lift for a Denali training or something is beyond me. Absolutely ridiculous. Also, I would like to know more about how the MLUs helped/hindered. Sounds like they do not provide pinpoint accuracy, but since there is a proposed bill for all of us to carry one, I would like to know 1) If they provided sound information as to the location of the party 2) If the rescue could be carried on without one in this situation (b/c the party was using cell phones)3)What benefits did the MLUs provide to the party by carrying them. 4) Do you think the party was overly optomistic in going up in bad weather becasue they were carrying an MLU (ie. false sense of security). My argument is that if the party of 8 were carrying a GPS unit instead of an MLU they would not have ventured into White River Canyon and would nt have required a rescue to begin with. Last time I checked a GPS unit is about $300 cheaper than an MLU and does not involve volunteer resources or pulling money away from an already strapped State budget to serve a very small sector of the overall population.

Anyone know if this is the highest and longest anyone has been without suplemental oxygen?

Heck yeah, it's free! Someone pays $500 intro to get the credit card under the name George Washington and gives his address at some house where there are 15 illegals staying in a 2 bedroom house. Then the card holder bolts after maxing out the card at say $2000, never to be heard from again. What is B of A going to do? Mark it on his credit report? Oh wait, B of A didn't have a ss# to access the individual's credit report, or a real name, or even a birth certificate. Good luck on getting their money back. I guess they will just have to pawn off their losses onto all of their other law-abiding patrons.......

I acutally can't wait to hear about all of the credit cards from B of A given out to illegals with "George Washington" or Arnold Schwartzenegger" on them! Anyone know what their "high introductory fee" and high interest rates are going to be? I'd say this is worse than Oregon giving illegal immigrants driver's licenses without any proof of age, citizenship, or a ss#. Or maybe it is a consiracy by the Feds to find out how many illegal immigrants are actually in the US? Free money? They will come out of the woodwork for sure!

I always look forward to the Uncle Sam billboard as a source of free entertainment when driving north to my climbs. Always wonder what that guy will come up with next! I am also too tempted to turn around and look at the other side as I pass instead of waiting until my return trip.....