Just read this for the second time. Don't know Twight personally, but some of his "techniques" are off the wall. I did not know that the line between going light and stupid was so thin.<P>Climbing hard, intentionally unknown,<P>Elvis

excuse me, but, don't you mean marc "twit"?

Have either of you climbed something-ANYthing harder than Mark has? <P>I doubt it. So what's your qualifications to provide critique or an attempt to discredit?

"I did not know that the line between going light and stupid was so thin."<P>I'm not an expert but, I believe that the point behind "extreme" alpinism is the fact that it is extremely minimal. Mark climbs his way I climb mine. I don't thnk that I would ever cut the tags out of my clothing and equipment to make them lighter (besides I would lose the Ohhh factor of all of my expensive and trendy gear).<P>Mark does...<P>to each their own.

Is "hard" the measurement of success?<P>When did "success" become equated with sacrifice and suffering?<P>Is simply "failing to die" on a route mean the climb was a success?

hikerwa-<BR>One does not need to be an accomplished climber to like or dislike what some climber does or says. Particularly in the case of Marc Twight, who has deliberately made a spectacle of himself over the years. <p>[This message has been edited by mattp (edited 08-20-2001).]

It is in his opinion. If you climb stuff as hard as he does, escaping by the skin of your teeth is part of the game. We all have our comfort zones, and if we all climbed at the same level, we'd all have our own books. He puts an emphasis on the style of an ascent, rather than the summit - I don't think that's such a bad deal. I've met the guy and I think he is a cocky bastard, but he has this style of climbing wired.<p>[This message has been edited by EddieE (edited 08-20-2001).]

Mark Twight's got some huevos grandes to pull off his style of climbing, that's for sure! His style of climbing may mirror our society's desire of thrillseeking and extreme sports culture. There are similar athletes in other sports or even facets of climbing. Reinhold Messner being the first on all 8000 meter peaks and soloing some of them for one, evokes the true nature of extreme alpinism. There's many others, other sports as well... how about Ned Gillete, was it, kayaked from California to Hawaii? or those wacked sportsers who row boats across the antarctic ocean?<P> There's a great book out there, exploring the links between going to the extremes,climbing and mysticism called "Bone Games".. In it the author explores the link between pushing oneself and the divine. He theorizes that what moves many extreme alpininsts to climb the way they do is it puts them in the realm of the "that-which-cannot-be-named"-<BR> Fascinating reading about this subject on a broader level of understanding.

Twight is God. I heard him speak to me after swallowing the contents of my 51st GU packet in 10 minutes.

I disagree with you MattP. If Mike Tyson wrote a book and you disagreed with him would your qualifications entice you to write negative press about him? I doubt it.<P>So if you can't walk the walk then don't talk the talk. And yes I am aware of Mark's history here in the NW and elsewhere. In the end he has made good his boasting. Better late than never I say.

Like Twight, Tyson has sought public attention and therefore he has no right to expect anyone not to express their opinion of him. I don't pay much attention to Mike Tyson - I believe that my opinion would be valid and that I would have a right to express it -- even to publicize it. Of course, by doing so I might be opening myself up to criticism for expressing an uninformed opinion. <P>And I don't see the morality or logic in suggesting that one is in no position to criticize their "superiors" -- if that is what you are saying. As a climber, you or anybody else have a right to your opinions and I bet you have some opinions regarding the style in which certain people climb as opposed to how others are doing the same climbs. You probably also have some opinions about whether somebody's actions may be self-serving, or whether a certain practice is environmentally responsible, or whatever. Consider this, which may be a silly example for a number of reasons -- does the fact that I'm not an expert with a chainsaw deny me the right to publicly criticize certain logging practices? How would that be different from saying that the fact that I might an not as good an alpine climber as Marc Twight means I cannot comment on how he conducts himself in public, whether I believe his writing is good or bad, or even whether his last climb was something that I admire or not?

Twight is a prick, grandstander, and shameless self promoter...and he's completely up front about all of it. That much I can respect. If the system oppresses your spirit, fuck it, exploit it before it exploits you. Follow your own path, but at least be honest about what that path is.<P>At a certain level standard tactics no longer work. It's similar to desert hiking, you can carry a shit-load of water and torture yourself carrying it, drinking it half because you're so tired from carrying all of it, or you can opt for a light approach and cover alot of ground to get you to that next water source. The margin of error grows smaller, but chances of success also skyrocket. <P>There's a concept called the "conventional wisdom" which was coined by William Kenneth Galbraith, a Harvard Economist who wrote The Affluent Society. Basically, Twight has set forth some new, genuine advancements in thought concerning alpine climbing and training. Of course these are outside the conventional wisdom, as all genuine acts of progress are.<P>The nutritional and training information alone make the book worth reading. I've expereinced some of the nutritional phenomena he relates and the theory behind it is sound.<P>Much to do is made over the suffering aspect of climbing at the limit. If you really investigate the impacts of psychological training you may find (as I have)that you can separate yourself from the dualistic sensations of the body (heat/cold, pain/pleasure, etc) and merely observe yourself feeling them. Cultivating a centered and mindful consiousness plays a major role in pushing your perceived limits.<P>Climb anyway that satisfies you, that is the end goal afterall. BUT, until you climb as hard as Mark, or repeat some of his routes using different tactics you don't have much room to criticize. Just because it isn't right for you doesn't mean it isn't right for anyone. The book focuses on long, hard alpine routes where objective hazards abound and the faster you an get up and off the route, the safer you are. Even if you have enough gear to hole up for three days in a storm, will you last that long before rockfall or an avalanche wipe your scrawny ass from the world of the living? Follow your bliss...<P>

I have to agree with Mattp on this one. And feel more than qualified to slam Tyson for his many plainly antisocial acts. Beyond any accomplishments Twight has become part and parcel to the big media/commerce BS campaign that is so often lamented on this site. Ian Curtis is surely spinning in his grave! Andre Gide is thinking "couldn't I have been more understandable?" <P>But given that risk, from an experiential perspective, is all perception, I believe many times a year some novice climbing bursts thru Twight's comfort zone and lives on the edge in a truley sponteneous and uncontrived manner. Several have said until you've climbed like Twight how can you criticize? I say "how can you judge if somebody hasn't already climbed beyond Twight!"

I dont know Mark Twight> I don't care about his attitude since I have yet to encounter it... I will deal with it when the time occurs. <P>Either way you can read his book and pick up some tips and ideas. That is what it was written for to pick and choose and aid you in climbing. You dont have to do everything he mentions to succeed. He makes some very good suggestions that I think surpass the Freedom of the Hills If you dont like something out of it then you can simply disregard it. I think that book was made for aspiring climbers with a little bit of experience.

I don't think Twight cares what other climbers say or think about him, sorta like John Dunne. Its all good. I'm certain he has a chuckle every time Tami comes out with a new cartoon...<P>I like that book. Its full of good tips and opinion. And I like how he tries to make climbing safely and conservatively (not falling off) seem like it is some style revolution.

"Climb anyway that satisfies you, that is the end goal afterall. BUT, until you climb as hard as Mark, or repeat some of his routes using different tactics you don't have much room to criticize."<BR>Brother Will! What kind of thinking is that??? Life is one big critique from the time we get up and decide whether our shirts are too stinky to wear for another weak, to our choice of menu items at a sushi-bar. To suggest that we don't have a right to comment or critisize unless we've been right there is to squelch free thought. There are also other ways of obtaining knowledge and arriving at conclusions other than direct experience...for example, repeating many of Twight's routes would probably be a dangerous experience for me at this time for a variety of reasons that I can conclude without even leaving this computer terminal. We can draw from our own experience, the experiences of others or perhaps come to a conclusion wholely based on our own rationalizations and if we disagree, so what.<BR>Next Point: Lots of focus on Twight because he's created his own niche: THE tormented alpinist who writes. We know of him because he gets published and the stories are usually about himself. There have always been extreme guys like that around. Twenty years ago I worked with a mountain guide named Dave Stutzman (Haireball..you probably knew that guy) whose life revolved around extreme climbing, extreme skiing, and his love of women. In my opinion, he was the technical equivalent of Twight (extreme minimalism) in his time. Unfortunately his life was cut short in an avalance c.1983. Dave went into the mountains and soloed big alpine routes fast with the most minimal of gear and if it were all rock, he'd even go barefoot! And you'd have to pry the details out of him later or get them from someone who saw him doing these things because it was a personal thing. And you know what? There are guys like he and Twight all over Europe. So the difference seems to be how much mouth-noise you can make and how much print you can command. He published a book. We're talking about him. .....Exactly!<BR>- Dwayner, who has an opinion even though he climbs for the joy and adventure rather than to mask the "pain of life".

Will, right on!<P>Dwayner, there is still some dark colour there, get over it, people. We a l l have to bend over. Why is more Java code or counting somebody's money or whatever any more "dignifying" than writing a good actually book? Actors/artist are often bitches, I love their work! Or Bill Gates has too much money... Yeah, yeah, yawn.

It strikes me that Twight has a lot in common with Bobbie Bensman (who had her own thread here a couple of months back.) They're both looking to make a living doing something they love, and the way you do that is by increasing your marketability, so the books and photo ops will enable you to finance your climbing.

Well Dwyaner, <P>Maybe the point was lost in the rest of my babble. I intended to convey that if you are prepared to criticize Twight's techniques for moving light and fast you should have a viable alternative. To prove that the alternative is indeed viable, would require (in my mind) substantial evidence to support it (your typical western-thought scientific model I know). The only evidence I can see to support such alternatives would be pratical application of such...namely by doing some of the type routes he advocates these methods for in the alternative style. Everyone is certainly welcome to their own opinion and oppression of individual freedom is the last thing on my mind. In my book you can claim to be the King of Siam and I won't challenge your right to say that, but I will call bullshit and question the credibility of the assertion.<P>

Right now there are 3 of the hottest girls I have ever seen climbing at exit38. So why am I here babbling on this thing again? I have no idea whatsoever. I am a loser...<P>But anyway my point should have said. "You can critique the man and his methods all you want, but you all sound like a bunch of yapping dogs at his feet". OH and Dwayner...MY Guy is still alive isn't he?

I am the King of Siam.<BR>love, Dwayner...yap, yap, yap<BR>P.S. I actually liked Twight's "Extreme" book and learned a few hot tips, and don't have any problem with him makin' money. I just take issue with the "walk a mile in my shoes" concept. By those standards, none of us can say "boo" about much of anything outside our own personal world of expertise, although it's true, the quality of one's opinion will often be judged by the quantity of one's own experience. Yes, there are all kinds of ways of knowing and assessing, INCLUDING, means OUTSIDE of the standard Western paradigm. How about this...I SENSE that I have turned this whole discussion into a real bore. Dooohhhhh!

Hey Will and Chongo <P>While I am critcizing Twight for his Commercialism you have brought up a good point regarding his contributions to "extreme alpinism" I ask you both: in what way has he (other than staying alive) advanced extreme alpinism more than Alex MacIntyre?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peter Puget:<BR><B> Several have said until you've climbed like Twight how can you criticize? I say "how can you judge if somebody hasn't already climbed beyond Twight!"</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Have you scaled up the North Side of Mount Hunter establishing new routes? or soloed Slipstream in under 3 hours? Or are you just jealous?<P>

PP,<P>Alex M was a visionary before his time. Twight has merely promoted his vision.<P>If truth be known the Poles were really the true standard bearers. Would you agree?

I don't know about Twight, but I am just to weak to carry alot of weight on long routes. Gu rocks!<P>I enjoyed Mark's slide show, he paid alot of respect to his companions who have passed in the mountains. And he drank a flask of whiskey! It was funny when he ripped on the new "mixed sport-climbing" scene.<P>It would have been cool if Twight had spent a little more time talking about emergency situations in his book. <p>[This message has been edited by lambone (edited 08-20-2001).]