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#788564 - 04/06/08 08:26 PM
Break a pick?
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Dane
addicted to cc.com
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 502
Loc: Issaquah
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In the years I've ice climbed I have to admit I have never broken a pick. My wife tells me I am a gentle guy 
I have however broken tools. Snapped a head off one while soloing grade 4 with no second tool. Which scared the shit out of me. Bent and straightened more picks than I care to count all the way back to Chouinard Piolets, Terrodactyls and Roosters. More recently I have done the same on modern Grivel and Petzl tools while using our other tools as the hammer and anvil. I had become satisfied with carrying a full size spare tool on everything but the "easiest" road side crags, until this winter anyway.
Hadn't climbed seriously in a while and never thought to bother with a spare, third matching tool...too much money. (I'd like a "matching" tool these days since there are so many options.) But wanting to climb hard again I once more started soloing, wanting to get my chit squared away and that thought (carrying a spare did come up) 
So I know my personal experience and that of the guys I have discussed the topic with.
Let's talk about what tools/picks you have actually seen broken or broken yourself? Stories only if the source was truly credible to you
Secondly, for anyone who has broken a pick...could you or did you "save" it by reshaping the shorter pick with a file.
My thought is most broken picks snap one or two teeth in and could be reshaped easily in route and reused on even difficult ice.
Thoughts? Experiences? And thanks!
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#788643 - 04/07/08 11:28 AM
Re: Break a pick?
[Re: Dane]
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fishstick
enthusiast
Registered: 03/26/01
Posts: 266
Loc: Vancouver BC
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I went for years without breaking anything, then snapped perhaps 8 Simonds (Piranha and Naja) PRE-FORGING PROCESS. Usually in very cold weather or the day after climbing such, or once in very, very hard ice. All of these breakages occurred following a change in Simond's design.
I've broken one BD pick in a short career of using such tools. Add two friends using the same - 10 picks broken in one season.
Perhaps 2002?
I've also badly bent the tips of two BDs (very thin ice, darkness, new route, soloing)(early 90s). I finished using old Simonds, munching and chipping chunks out of the tips, but the picks remained quite functional.
Of the picks I've seen snap, all have gone at near placement depth, so about 2 inches. Of those I've snapped, I've been able to lead or solo to the top of the pitch or down-climb. The gorked pick has still seemed like a better option than using the relatively useless third tool that I carried until recently.
I've been with people who've bent Grivel Evolution picks beyond functionality.
Since I switched to tools using forged picks (2004)(Simonds), durability has been perfect with no breaking or bending. It's a real confidence booster when running it out or traveling alone.
Cheers,
GB
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#788933 - 04/08/08 10:53 AM
Re: Break a pick?
[Re: Dane]
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PaulB
addicted to cc.com
Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 600
Loc: North Vancouver
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Let's talk about what tools/picks you have actually seen broken or broken yourself? Stories only if the source was truly credible to you
I've broken one BD pick:
This happened as I was starting to second the crux pitch of Night'N'Gale. Luckily, the ice was quite soft, so with some extra effort in my swings, I was able to bash my way up. If the ice had been cold and brittle it would have been a much bigger PITA.
Secondly, for anyone who has broken a pick...could you or did you "save" it by reshaping the shorter pick with a file.
My thought is most broken picks snap one or two teeth in and could be reshaped easily in route and reused on even difficult ice.
In this case, more than an inch of the pick broke off so it wasn't worth trying to save it. When I showed it to one of the mechanical engineers I work with, he commented that based on the shape of the fracture, it was likely caused by a hairline crack on the underside of the pick which got progressively worse every time the pick was removed, due to the up and down leverage. Eventually, the crack made it about half way through the pick, at which point it completely failed.
Thinking back, the pick broke in 2004, but it was probably bought in 02 or 03. The original crack could have happened shortly after I bought it, but since I was only getting out a few times a season, it took awhile to fail.
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#789016 - 04/08/08 01:45 PM
Re: Break a pick?
[Re: Dane]
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tvashtarkatena
sprayer
Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 7619
Loc: ked in a fragrant embrace
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Both Petzl and BD use 4340 Ni Cr Mo alloys for their picks, but differences in hardening/tempering/design between the two can produce varying mechanical properties and failure modes. Chrome moly steel can be had in many forms. It is not all the same. The biggest differences however in picks is the use of CNC plate cutting techniques on the chrome moly and then heat treated to spec or chrome moly hot forgings, heat treated to spec and then hand finished. This is a good short course in steel and manufacturing. http://www.grivelnorthamerica.com/technology.php?gid=1Easy to guess the one company of the top three tool makers who doesn't use forged picks. There is a small amount of difference in the stress risers incorporated into each company's pick by tooth design. The two design/manufacturing do add up.
All three makers 'forge' their picks. Grivel hot forges (die forms the steel when hot) while Petzl and BD cold forge (die form cold, heat to temper afterwards). None of the companies use CNC. They stamp in the logo and other surface feathers, form the edges, and cut out the part in one go with a die. (Look for a little conventional 'clock face' with an arrow pointing to the die number...it's stamped into the pick as well). CNC would be too slow and expensive.
Either process can be tuned to produce similar mechanical properties, so, while Grivel chooses to showcase hot forging as a selling point, it's more hype than anything else. Grivel's hot forging process can more readily produce more complex shapes, thus allowing more freedom in designing in weight distribution, but all three produce tools that are nicely weighted, and, ironically, Grivel's tools are typically heavier than then comparable BD or Petzl models. I've also noticed that with some Grivel axes they seem to have neglected much of the extra finish work required after hot forging (presumably to save money, since their process is inherently more expensive), producing an end product with surface irregularities than can lead to unwanted stress concentrations and crack formation. Whether or not this has actually been a problem with their tools, I don't know.
In any case, the proof is in the field performance.
Edited by tvashtarkatena (04/08/08 01:51 PM)
_________________________
King of All the Ass Candles
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#789025 - 04/08/08 02:00 PM
Re: Break a pick?
[Re: mike_m]
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tvashtarkatena
sprayer
Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 7619
Loc: ked in a fragrant embrace
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I've broken two of the BD Laser picks, both at the same place about an inch from the tip; 4th tooth maybe. Both times soft ice, relatively warm temps. Fortunately TR'd both times, once at Ouray and once following Bow Falls.
It looks like the breaks happen where the tooth depth changes. I remember seeing a collection of busted BD picks at one of the shops in Canada (Mountain MAgic, probably, they all snapped at the same place.
Interesting. Some possible root causes:
1) An irregularity in the die at that particular tooth produces too tight a radius and thus, a stress concentration.
2) All the teeth inner radii are too tight, and that tooth just happens to be the point of maximum stress.
3) The overall geometry of the tool's cross section is too small to handle the maximum stress at that particular tooth.
4) Either the cold forging or heat treatment process produce a weakness in the steel's crystalline structure at that tooth.
5) As mentioned above, a shitty lot of product (bad steel, poorly tuned manufacturing process, etc)
Any combination of the above.
Edited by tvashtarkatena (04/08/08 02:02 PM)
_________________________
King of All the Ass Candles
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