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#6416 - 08/04/01 09:18 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Retrosaurus Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 735
TRs: 1 Photos: 0
Loc: Badger Mtn
In light of the recent anonymous threats made against the route restorers, I have decided to part with the six bolts and hangers that I have in my posesssion in order to purchase a superior bolt removal tool. It is called a Dayton Bar. It is about 5 feet long with a hollow rectangular tube handle and a really burly nailpuller-like claw and is virtually indestructable. This is your chance to contribute to the conservation of our vertical resources and to own a little piece of climbing history. For ten dollars (plus two dollars shipping and handling) you can have one of the retro bolts with hanger that was removed by Will, Ray and myself from Dan's Dreadful Direct and directly contribute to the purchace of a tool that will remove retrobolts more cleanly and efficiently, and to help maintain the spirit of adventure and respect for tradition embodied in our traditional crags.
_________________________
Mitch Merriman

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#6417 - 08/04/01 11:30 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
slaphappy Offline
old hand

Registered: 05/16/01
Posts: 857
TRs: 0 Photos: 2
Talk about accomplished PNW climbers losing respect, whew!
_________________________
"I don't believe in fate... I believe in bad luck."

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#6418 - 08/05/01 10:45 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Smoker Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 12/03/00
Posts: 242
TRs: 4 Photos: 4
Loc: Bellevue, Washington USA
<BR>Ok I spent a few minutes reading this entire thread. I find that there have been many good points made about preserving the nature of climbing. <P>I believe that at the bottom of this issue is the underlying "belief" that there be some standard about when to bolt and when to back off. <P>Obviously this distinction is fuzzy. There are folks that stand on both sides of the issue. I tend to believe that people that want to reduce a line's "risk" by bolting, chipping; gluing etc. is off base. At least when the line can be climbed by a competent climber that can make the grade. <P>I think reducing a climb to my standard is wrong. The ethics that allow that in someone’s makeup demonstrate a lack of respect for the medium and for their fellow climbers, (respected or no). <P>Maybe we all bear a bit of responsibility here. There is so much rock to climb in our state, and it is documented so well that I don’t have to establish new routes. There are so many to choose from it is often difficult to choose what to get on. I have been willing to let a few motivated climbers develop most of the routes published in guidebooks, (as have most of us). Yes, Tumwater Canyon, Icicle Cr, Index, WA. Pass are rich in history. Many top climbers have honed their skills and taken them further to more distant places than I.<P>Still, when a new and "improved" guidebook comes out by said "developer" (s) we go and get the book. We tend to perpetuate the problem in this regard. We scream "grid bolting must stop!" but the developers say "We're doing the community a service, they are still buying our guide books.” And in a way they would be right. <P>I am compelled to add my swill to the stink vat. Retro, Cavey and Will you took a stand for what you believe is right and while all your posturing is a bit boorish I support what you did. I don't believe that continued bolting unchecked is prudent. Perhaps a little harder work at speaking to the bolters would have been productive but WTF! You served notice and I am sure the respected bolters will pay closer attention to their actions in the future since bolts are a labor of love and $. <P>I'll go on to say that I appreciate the efforts of the developers and their guide books. Without which I would not be as accomplished as I am today. I am disappointed that no-one that was responsible for the line in question weighed in with their thoughts, although we have heard from Victor and he should be accorded a bit of respect for his work in the past and willingness to speak now.<P>This discussion has been hostile at best and there is no room for threats, against route "developers" or "restorers". I hope everyone will remember that there are higher authorities that will take steps to control what, where and when we can climb. None of us want that.<P>Too the Respected PNW climbers, perhaps you can see fit to leave documented routes intact and stick to new lines?<P>Retro, maybe you should compare the Dayton bar to the Burke bar. It is a beefy bar as well but I am not aware of how it compares in cost. E-mail me if you want any advice on altering the nail puller to fit bolts. As a tradesman I have a few ideas that might help.<P>Peace-out to all<BR>Smoker<BR>
_________________________
------------------------------------------------- " Let them eat cake!"

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#6419 - 08/05/01 02:16 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Retrosaurus Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 735
TRs: 1 Photos: 0
Loc: Badger Mtn
Smoker,<BR>Thanks for your clear thoughts. I am very much interested in the Burke Bar. Any info is appreciated.<P>To All,<BR>(Esp. Joe Citizen),<BR>There are only five bolts left, one is spoken for. Get yours now and show your support.<P>Mitch<P>My appologies to Viktor Kramar. I do appreciate (most of) the work you do.
_________________________
Mitch Merriman

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#6420 - 08/05/01 07:50 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Charlie Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 934
TRs: 0 Photos: 10
Loc: Alki
Speaking of castle rock- does anybody know the story with all of those wooden wedges pounded in around the corner(to the left) of the ddd route?

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#6421 - 08/06/01 08:25 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Yahoo_sucks Offline
stranger

Registered: 07/12/01
Posts: 18
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Seattle
Retro-<P>Screw the bolts and hangers - just tell me where I can get me one of those Dayton Bars!

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#6422 - 08/06/01 07:51 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Retrosaurus Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 735
TRs: 1 Photos: 0
Loc: Badger Mtn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bjorn:<BR><B>...where I can get me one of those Dayton Bars!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bjorn:<BR>Check with one of the places that rents construction type equipment to contractors.
_________________________
Mitch Merriman

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#6423 - 08/06/01 08:24 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Retrosaurus Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 735
TRs: 1 Photos: 0
Loc: Badger Mtn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bjorn:<BR><B>... some tips and advice for removing unsightly bolts ...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The first problem is getting your bar under the bolt hanger. Either back the bolt off with a wrench to where you can get under it or drive knifeblades then lost arrows then start stacking pins between the hanger and the rock until you can get a BIG ASSED bar under it.<P>Then start working the bar from all different angles. Padding between the rock and the bar with hardwood scraps will help to minimize superficial scarring and positioning the fulcrum point for the best mechanical advantage. <P>It helps to pound on the head of the bolt (as if driving the bolt back into the rock) while applying maximum pressure to the bar. This violent in/out jarring destroys the sleeve that tightens over the conical part of the expansion bolt and the bolt can then be pried out of the hole.<P>I am still looking for the best way to fill the hole. I am thinking that sizing the right size/shape pebble with the 3/8, 1/2" hole in the bolt hanger and epoxing it in place with putty epoxy may have leave the best appearance. Does anyone out there have direct experience?
_________________________
Mitch Merriman

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#6424 - 08/29/01 09:43 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Thorodin Offline
stranger

Registered: 08/28/01
Posts: 1
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Nederland, CO USA
I heard about this controversy while attending a wedding reception in Seattle, and read through the thread here on cascadeclimbers. As one of the first-free-ascentionists of DDD, I thought I’d weigh in.<P>First, to correct a major misconception in these postings: the climb is not a “protectable crack”, it features very marginal protection from small RPs in flaring pin scars for the first 20 feet or so, with widely spaced nut placements in small seams after that.<P>As Victor correctly points out, when the first ascent was done there was a fixed pin in place - it was actually there for Damnation Crack, but we did reach over and clip it, and it protected what was otherwise a very dangerous runout.<P>I believe the guiding principle for replacing fixed gear on an existing climb should be to maintain the state of the climb as the first ascentionists found it; for instance, replacing bolts that were reliable but have since become rusty. Or, replacing fixed pins that have fallen out. In the latter case, a bolt may be a better choice since a replaced pin will just fall out again eventually, and the rock gets beat out a little more each time.<P>So, I would say that adding one bolt to DDD, at the same level as the original fixed pin (even with the bulge at the end of the initial crack on Damnation) would be perfectly appropriate. Ideally it should be further out left on the wall, since the original fixed piece was an awkward reach right to clip and would be too close to Damnation Crack, which really doesn’t need a bolt.<P>As for the second bolt... well, I did think that the route was otherwise adequately protected - if just barely - with nuts. The start requires stepping above small, insecure wires until you reach the (missing) fixed pin, but that’s part of the charm of the route. I remember stepping up and down a bunch of times working out moves, too scared to fall on the tiny wires below me; as a sport route it would be a completely different experience.<P>To the folks who chopped the bolts, I do appreciate your efforts to maintain traditional cragging values at what has always been a trad crag. And, you filled the scars with epoxy and rock chips, right?<P>But I do think the addition of one bolt to replace the missing fixed pin would be perfectly reasonable. And, just to close up with my own controversial criticism - I do think it’s a little dishonest to chop a route you can’t climb yourself, based on a judgment that “it’s adequately protectable without the bolt”, if you have never stood well above that last #1 RP, looking down 20’ at the ground on 5.11 climbing... <P>Last, to set the record straight, although Dan Lepeska and myself got credit for the first free ascent, it was really Jim Yoder’s project - he was the one who saw the potential to free climb it, and he had cleaned it and worked out the protection over several days. Lepeska happened to be there watching his attempts one day, and Yoder graciously let him give it a try - to everyone’s surprise Dan fired it! I was hanging out watching too, and made a convenient belayer. I followed the route, then came back a few days later and led it. After that I still climbed it occasionally... but always on a toprope, as it was too dangerous for my tastes!<BR>

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#6425 - 08/29/01 11:43 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Downhill Offline
journeyman

Registered: 05/30/01
Posts: 52
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Hi Thorodin<BR>Please check your private mail. Thanks!

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#6426 - 09/19/02 09:29 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Chepe Offline
member

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 115
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: somehwere
Anyone remember this one?

I hate bolts!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

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#6427 - 09/19/02 10:58 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Retrosaurus Offline
old hand

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 735
TRs: 1 Photos: 0
Loc: Badger Mtn
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
_________________________
Mitch Merriman

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#6428 - 09/19/02 11:07 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Dr_Flash_Amazing Offline
sprayer

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 6904
TRs: 0 Photos: 9
Loc: PDX
Great thread.
<img border="0" alt="sleep" title="" src="graemlins/yellowsleep.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="sleep" title="" src="graemlins/yellowsleep.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="sleep" title="" src="graemlins/yellowsleep.gif" />

Hey, did anyone hear that we might go to war with Iraq?
_________________________
they'll beat you with the truth
so you won't feel the lies

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#6429 - 09/19/02 11:28 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
iain Offline
Spray Master

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11630
TRs: 13 Photos: 7
Loc: Bend, OR
having some 2nd thoughts about a few posts today Cavey? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Wazzup]" title="" src="graemlins/wazzup.gif" />

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#6430 - 09/20/02 12:04 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Cpt.Caveman Offline
sprayer

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 9633
TRs: 5 Photos: 0
Nah but if you want to know anything just ask.

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#6431 - 09/11/04 09:49 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
lancegranite Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1740
TRs: 0 Photos: 88
Loc: 11worth
I climbed Dan's dreadful direct in it's apparently very short-lived bolted version.

It was pretty fun.

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#6432 - 09/11/04 09:55 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
pope Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 2856
TRs: 1 Photos: 54
Loc: iso
Quote:
I climbed Dan's dreadful direct in it's apparently very short-lived bolted version.

It was pretty fun.


Hope you washed your hands.
_________________________
Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz, which is extinct. -FZ

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#6433 - 09/11/04 10:24 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
lancegranite Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1740
TRs: 0 Photos: 88
Loc: 11worth
Sad that such a bold climb has been put out to stud as the second most popular top rope on Loggers Ledge.

"That climb over there is Danny's Dreadful Di-rect,
once the haadest,scariest, most mean trad climb in all of this Chelan county...
Now he jus' gits greasy giving pony rides to college girls ovah here on vacation from the coast"....

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#6434 - 09/12/04 11:17 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
MervGriffin Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 233
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Hollywood, So. Cal.
Quote:
Sad that such a bold climb has been put out to stud as the second most popular top rope on Loggers Ledge.


Put to stud????? It's still there for the leading if you're up for it! Bold folks in older days seemed to manage it!

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#6435 - 09/12/04 01:17 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Szyjakowski Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 01/27/02
Posts: 2589
TRs: 1 Photos: 32
Loc: Jamn in WA
yeah but there was a few pitons.
still it probably can be led with modern widgets.

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#6436 - 09/12/04 02:14 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
pope Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 02/24/01
Posts: 2856
TRs: 1 Photos: 54
Loc: iso
Quote:
Sad that such a bold climb has been put out to stud as the second most popular top rope on Loggers Ledge.


Studly again in my estimation.
_________________________
Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz, which is extinct. -FZ

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#6437 - 09/12/04 03:20 PM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
lancegranite Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/10/03
Posts: 1740
TRs: 0 Photos: 88
Loc: 11worth
Indeed.

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#6438 - 10/26/04 08:54 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
Lepton Offline
n00b

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 26
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Lake Forest Park, WA
It has been some time since I have climbed, a retirement forced from stress injuries to joints from stupid training. Recently it came to my attention that there was some controversy surrounding Dan's Dreadful Direct, and I thought it appropriate I should add my voice to the equation, since I had the moment of privelege granted to me by Jim Yoder and had the belay and support of John Stoddard to free climb this wonderful route for the first time.

Indeed, John's point of view, that the existing manky old fixed pin on Damnation Crack did contribute to some level of safety for the crux section of the route, is an accurate statement. It was an ackward clip, but it was also a critical piece of protection.

Personally, I have no problem with the addition of a good bolt in a location that would be in about the same area as the original pin. One bolt is more than adequate. Additional bolts to make a sport climb of this route is not acceptable.

When Jim, John, and I did the climb we did it with the idea of using the natural protection available on the climb. The use of RP's was critical to success, and I understand that new protection has replaced RP's as the gear of choice for ultra small placements.

For many of my climbs I logged "air time" figuring out moves, with many a fall onto RP's down to #1 size. When used properly they provide psychological and sometimes real protection.

Climbs that are conceived as bold statements of ability for control with long runouts over difficult rock should stand in as original condition as possible. In the event the original climb is altered with the loss of a fixed pin or bolt, then the climb should be restored to as near to original condition as possible. In my opinion this climb, while having an element of danger, was not a lethal proposition, but certainly had the potential for painful consequences for failure.

Not all climbs are for all people. In fact the ability to do a given climb is a temporary condition and a privelege that should be enjoyed fully at the moment.
_________________________
Open your eyes to the "easy making" holds.

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#6439 - 10/26/04 10:20 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
scott_harpell Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 03/23/02
Posts: 4405
TRs: 0 Photos: 10
well said. <img src="/threadz/images/graemlins/thumbs_up.gif" alt="" />

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#6440 - 10/26/04 10:47 AM Re: Dan's Dreadful Direct restored
sexual_chocolate Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 09/27/01
Posts: 3572
TRs: 0 Photos: 23
Loc: seattle
Excellent. I very much appreciate the sincerety of your position.

Let's appreciate the vision of first ascensionists such as Lepton, and allow their accomplishments to stand unadultered as testaments to something a little more involving than the clipping of conveniently placed bolts.

Bolts can have their place, but never on a route that has been led without them (IMO).

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