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#593644 - 09/01/06 03:10 PM
How do route "Grades" work?
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kiwi-wanker
Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 2712
TRs: 38
Photos: 655
Loc: Bellingham
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ok, please keep this spray free: When does a route "begin" and "end" for the sake of a commitment grade? Does the route begin when you hit the rock section that most parties would rope up for? How about for snow requiring crampons or with crevasse danger? I remember when Mike Layton called the WA Pass traverse a grade VI and some people felt like when your route crosses a spot with a trail to it (such as Burgundy col) that you are no longer adding more time/commitment on to what you had previously done. If the descent of a climb is long and involved (ie getting off of Goode and back to the NE side of the mountain) does that change the commitment grade, or does the route grade stop at the summit? Should the grade of a route reflect the time it takes to get up the route and back to a certain spot, or just up to the top? I guess this is all trickier for traverses that have no summit, or climbs like the " Plan B " that include a traverse after the summit itself as part of the descent. I did a climb earlier this year that included a bivy atop a glacier, before the technical rock section which definitely took a full day, but I figured it was probably a grade IV because the glacier part didn't really get factored in. If glaciers are considered on-route 'technical terrain', then that would effect the time commitment/grade of many routes. Are they? If this has all been hashed out before, or its just too inherently subjective, then I guess it doesn't need to be discussed any more. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, I just want to figure out how it all works. 
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#593645 - 09/01/06 03:26 PM
Re: How do route "Grades" work?
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consummate douchebag
Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 5185
TRs: 21
Photos: 321
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I like the way Nelson/Potterfield give grades to both the technical climbing portion (which is typical) as well as the approach. I'm one of those folks who believe that the Grade of a route should indicate the commitment level and difficulty of retreat to "non-technical" terrain, so I didn't think Layton's route was Grade VI. I think it's hard to make any black and white definitions about these sorts of things though. Edit: This is a Grade VI: 
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#593649 - 09/01/06 05:20 PM
Re: How do route "Grades" work?
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old hand
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1002
TRs: 13
Photos: 113
Loc: The epicenter of North Califor...
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Quote:
Just to be clear a "commitment" grade (eg Alaska grade) is different from the traditional grade scale. (ie a grade VI ala' Half Dome)
Not exactly, Pete. The distinction between a Grade VI and a Grade VII wall is not its length, but its access. That's why an El Cap size wall in Baffin is a VII. So I believe that commitment does get factored into traditional grades, but is only a factored in when distinguishing between V, VI, and VII.
Any Alpine Grade, be it Alaskan, Kiwi, or French, give commitment a much higher value. Commitment may be defined as the time/distance from definitive aid or assistance. This could be a road, technical rescue arriving, etc.
I always though that it went something like:
I - less than 2 hours
II - 2-4 hours
III - 4-8 hours
IV - 8-12 hours
V - 12-18 hours, probably overnight
VI - at least one night, probably more
VII - multiple nights on route, definitive assistance greater than 24 hours away
These grades only factor in 1) the speed of a competent, traditional party unless otherwise described, and 2) the route of ascent, not descent.
And I agree - I like the Select Cascade practice of adding a grade to the hike. It helps me when I'm considering how much time I have to get out.
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#593655 - 09/01/06 07:16 PM
Re: How do route "Grades" work?
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old hand
Registered: 11/06/03
Posts: 1170
TRs: 0
Photos: 59
Loc: Small Pond
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Quote:
I always though that it went something like:
I - less than 2 hours
II - 2-4 hours
III - 4-8 hours
IV - 8-12 hours
V - 12-18 hours, probably overnight
VI - at least one night, probably more
VII - multiple nights on route, definitive assistance greater than 24 hours away
Exactly! 
But Blake, rock and snow/ice grades are a bit different.
From Alpinist:
I-II: 1 or 2 pitches near the car, but may need to be avoided during avalanche season.
III: Requires most of a day including the approach, which may require winter travel skills (possible avalanche terrain, placing descent anchors).
IV: A multipitch route at higher altitude or remote location.Multi-hour approaches in serious alpine terrain.
V: A full-day climb in alpine terrain with a long approach, long technical descent, and objective dangers.
VI: A long waterfall with the character of an alpine route; formerly required at least a day to complete, now often done faster. Significant alpine objective hazards.
VII: Under discussion.
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#593658 - 09/02/06 12:18 AM
Re: How do route "Grades" work?
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old hand
Registered: 01/24/03
Posts: 1031
TRs: 20
Photos: 288
Loc: leavenworth
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Quote:
So if the upper North Ridge of Stuart is IV what grade you'd give for the full North Ridge?
One thing you have to remember about grades is that there totally made up. It depends on your experience on the route which can vary drastically from party to party. A friend and i climbed the complete N Ridge of Stuart this year in 7:45, base of route to summit. I'd give it a IV+. Though we descended the somewhat tedious NW buttress to get down, and it took a few hours, it really had nothing to do with the route on the NR and should not get equated into its grade. The late Guy Edwards climbed the complete NR in oct 2001 car to car in 6:47.  Wonder what kinds grade he would have given it?
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#593661 - 09/02/06 05:16 PM
Re: How do route "Grades" work?
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kiwi-wanker
Registered: 10/15/03
Posts: 2712
TRs: 38
Photos: 655
Loc: Bellingham
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Quote:
Again, I don't think alpine grades apply to Blake's question. Blake, you're asking about the "traditional" grade system, right?
I was talking about the traditional grade system used to describe how long a route will take.
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#593663 - 09/03/06 09:13 PM
Re: How do route "Grades" work?
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Spray Master
Registered: 12/20/01
Posts: 12165
TRs: 47
Photos: 352
Loc: free range
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Quote:
I always though that it went something like:
I - less than 2 hours
II - 2-4 hours
III - 4-8 hours
IV - 8-12 hours
V - 12-18 hours, probably overnight
VI - at least one night, probably more
VII - multiple nights on route, definitive assistance greater than 24 hours away
These are soft grades.
The Supertopo's have a good list or check FOTH. But basically:
I: a single pitch. Rarely used
II: a short climb of a few pitches: a couple (2-5)hours
EG; Beckey route on Lib Bell, or Diedre
III: A "half day climb." Typically 5-8 hours. eg: any of the face routes on Nesakwatch Spire; Yak Crack; any of the west face routes on the Early Winter Spires
IV: An "all day climb". Bivis are possible for the slow. More than 8, less than about 16 to 20 hours. All day means starting and usually finishing by headlamp on the longest day of the year... Examples: north ridge of Clarke, SE Butt on Slesse.
V: a one or two bivi climb, although fast parties with beta can do them in a day. EG: NE Butt of Slesse is low in the grade (more like a long IV but people often do end up bivying). Navvy wall or East Buttress of Slesse are more typical.
VI: more than two bivis. The Nose on El Cap is the typical example.
VII: a big wall in a very remote setting at high altitude. There are no Grade VIIs in continental North America, by definition. Grade VII is confined to Himalaya, Karakoram, biggest faces on Baffin, hardest walls in Patagonia, etc - stuff that takes a month of hard aid every day to climb. Grand Voyage on Trango Tower is the prime example. There are no Grade VIIs in the Cascades, Yosemite, or Coast Mountains and by definition there cannot be.
It does get confusing when a climb that was done on aid and rated for that gets freed. Free climbing is much faster and the rating properly should drop to reflect this - for instance Lotus Flower Tower was given VI as an aid route but now gets V as a free climb.
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#593664 - 09/03/06 09:23 PM
Re: How do route "Grades" work?
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Spray Master
Registered: 12/20/01
Posts: 12165
TRs: 47
Photos: 352
Loc: free range
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I have heard it argued that Angels Crest & Squamish Buttress are Grade IV but they seem more like upper end IIIs really. But you can apparently claim them as IVs when preparing your Climbing Resume and application form to become a Mountain Guide  . I guess there have been numerous bivis on Angels Crest over the years too. No one since Beckey has bivied on Squamish Butt though.
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