Forrest_m,<P>That is what I thought you were saying, my brian was just not working too well at the time. <P>When you said something about Rainer not being alpine style. It seemed to counter what you were saying, so I just asked for clarification.<P>At the time it was not so apparent to me that you meant the siege description of the rainier expedition in an earlier posting.<P>My brain-cramp.<P>sorry and no offense taken...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:<BR><B>Deal and Oh I aint Tshirt man either in case you were wonderin... <BR> </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't worry we know now (thanks to Mike) that you are "Sock Man" not Tshirt Man.<BR>

Well sock man is way better than Rock Man <P>No shame in that. Mike has done his own Sahale meister you can ask him what that is all about.<p>[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 06-13-2001).]

That's very impressive Ranger Chad Kellogg's time. Signing the register too. Did he set the record in full climbing gear, as Van Hoy and Smolich tried back in 1985? I know others have bettered their time in tennis shoes and ski poles. <P>For those interested, Dee Molenaar's terrific book, The Challenge of Rainier, has much information on attempts on Rainier, and record times on it's routes. Most of them by Van Hoy, Smolich and Jason Edwards. All in one push, car to car in a under a day. <P>For what it's worth, in Mike Gauthier's book, he notes that Fuhrer's Finger is not the most direct route to the summit, Gib Ledges is. Though the speed attempts are always done on the DC.

I had hoped to climb via the Gib Ledges but, the climbing ranger on duty last Friday Morning said conditions were WI, exposed rock and with the recent wind probably patches of spindrift over the ice to clog your crampons, so it is basically out. The DC is probably the likely cantidate as no one in my party has done the Finger.<P>I think we will leave the pickets, take one extra ice axe to back up an ice axe anchor in the event of a crevase fall. Tennis shoes and poles to muir sounds like a good suggestion also. <P>Is the ginko belober' the same stuff Capt. Cavemon is pushing? <BR>

I push hemp rope only. None of that other jive bro <P>Bronco when are you venturing?<P>BTW to help stop the snow balling duct tape the bottom of your crampons.<P>I would also take at least one picket anyway. They are real damn light anyhow...

actaully ginsing is a better herbal supplement for keeping energy levels up. ginko bilbo works more for brain clarity.<P>both are antioxidents and work to help clear dirty shit from your blood stream. to help your body work more effiencently. there are many energy herbal supplements, but most are almost counterprodutive then productive. bui wong(sp)(natural form of phedrine(dexatim, cold pills) might give you energy but at the same time it breaks bone matter.<P>th use of herbal supplements should only be taken after non commiting experimentation. to get sick on a mtn due to some random unplanned chemical reaction is quite dangerous.<P>i have my personal mixture which i believe works well for me. it combines ginsing and another herb, after a 30min of hking i have a good vibration that only makes the approach more enjoyable.

The recovery drink (endurox r4) I use on long climbs has ciwujia in it which has (aparantly) been succefully used by some high altitude climbers. The new generation of recovery drinks are 100 times better than the old gatoraide type stuff.<P>Anyway, I generally have not had bad side effects from altitude, I drink lotsa water. Coffee before, coffee beans durring and a brew after also helps with the good vibes. <BR>

bronc,<P>caffine is a diuretic and excellerates dehydration. and puts a wierd meth like vibe in the system. u crash pretty hard from it.

So the doctors say but I choose coffee when I crag just not on longer slogs...

I have also heard the generalization on caffine, but,have also read a study that you only loose half a cup of coffe due to the diauetic effect so you do come out on the PLUS side of staying hydrated, just not as efficent as water in that regard. I think consuming it in moderation is the key.<P>I don't want to climb with any of my buddies who haven't had thier cup o' joe, they are crankey!!!

From experience with coffee, youlose more water than you gain. Maybe I make it too strong??

No coffee, no climbee... <BR>

A long time ago I climbed the Furher finger leaving the car at 8pm and went nonstop to the summit. We smoked a joint every 1,000' of elevation we gained. We didn't set a speed record but it sure was fun. <P>Maybe someone can tell me what style that was.<BR>

It sure wasn't "NolanR style"

Mary Jane style toke it baby toke it!

I'd call it a "bud-point" ascent...

Killer I think you might have gained an extra 1000 ft for every time you toked. So maybe you were feeling the effects of real "high" elevation??

Rastaf-Aryan Nations!!! White Punks On Dope!!

Yeah we lost track of our elevation. <P>They say because Denali is so far north it's like climbing a 23,000' mountain on the equator. So there must be an extra thousand feet on Rainier.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlpineK:<BR><B>They say because Denali is so far north it's like climbing a 23,000' mountain on the equator. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That sounds like a TEAM HARSH REALM statistic! <BR>

I heard that long before I ever heard of Team Harsh Relm, but I'm sure that Scott guy used that statistic to full advantage.<P>I think it's base on the fact that the atmosphere is thinner at the poles. It's a good excuse to smoke more which is all that really matters.<p>[This message has been edited by AlpineK (edited 06-14-2001).]

Alpine Tom wrote: <P>"No place in the the US, except maybe Denali, is high enough for some sort of siege climbing to make sense." <P>Au contraire Tom, try the some of SE Face routes on the Captain and tell me siege tactics aren't necessary in the US. Sure you could do them alpine style, but you'd be hauling a shit-ton of weight up the wall. Hell, the Polish dudes pushed the envelope on alpine style in the Himalaya back in the early 80's, but most of the ascents on those peaks are still done siege style. On many wall routes the best strategy is often to fix a bunch of pitches, get all the gear you'll need to finish to the high point, retreat to the ground, rest and wait for a good weather window, and evetually "blast off". <P>I know you are talking about mountaineering as opposed to rock, but the lines are getting pretty blurred with wall routes going up in Pakistan, Nepal,Patagonia, etc that top out over 20,000ft involve snow, ice, rock, and aid climbing in the same route.

Odd and meadering discussion, lads...but why not? A couple of observations:<BR>Is Ginko Balboa related to that big stupid guy in the Rocky movies?<BR>Who the "h" cares how fast you climb Rainier? Sounds like a set-up for subliminal schoolboy playground taunting..."I climbed it fast-er that YOU did, I'm a bigger alpine wiener-man than you are!" (followed by the obligatory "NYA, nya, nya NYA-nya). Can't you just go out and have a nice time? Put on your strap-on....I mean strap-on your crampons and GO! And what´s with this car to car thing? Who doesn´t climb Mt. Rainier car to car unless you hitch-hike or come down another route.<BR>By the way, these RMI/Ranger fast-boys? Sure, they´re all in good shape like the rest of us, but ginko balbotulism isn´t their edge: it´s the fact that they're living at elevation at Paradise and Muir much of the summer, they´re slogging the route repeatedly and they got the intimate up to the minute route beta.<BR>One last comment...I shall pose a riddle.<BR>Riddle: What rhymes with "Rainier"?<BR>Give up?<BR>Answer: The answer, my friends, is "beer" so y'all continue with your fast! fast! fast! alpine chatter (which has frankly exhausted me) while I see if the kindly man behind the bar here might, just might, have an ice cold Mickey´s Big Mouth with my name on it. What´s that, amigo? Not in the U.K.? You think I should try a pint of Old Peculiar? Hey! A little sampler glass! Thank you, sir!.......mmmmmmm...not bad!!! Fill 'er up, guvna!.....and the rest of you, carry on wid your business.<BR>- Dwayner

We arent going for speed so much as for a fun different way to approach the climb. I can garantee you we will not be anywhere near a speed record, hoping for about 16 hours TRUCK TO TRUCK. Have a good day<P>On the same subject does anyone know if dry tooling in big cedar trees will place any unusual stress on the picks of your tools?