After some thought, I'm with Cavey on this one. However my dad can beat up your dad.

My daddy was Bam Bam from the Flinstones. I think he would make Mince meat outta most folks It is hard having a movie star as my pops.<P>No need to bring in my pappy to fight my battles for me <P>Let's team up for the first siege\alpine\porter\guided\solo ascent of Rainier?! I will hire ScottP as expedition leader. I will have the NPS move the wheel chair accessible shitter to our basecamp if we decide to make it other than muir by simply threatening to sue. We will carry nothing and have all our gear hauled for us! What do you say??!!<P>-Cpt

ScottP,<P>Where can I find some resource, i.e. very experienced and highly regarded alpinist, recognized liturature, recognized organization, etc. that redefines "ALPine style" to your definition.<P>Per Se...no. Per ScottP...yes.<P>Seriously, you are welcome to your own definition. No one expects every climber to agree on everything. But when you ask a question or base an answer on your own definition, it will simply confuse those you are communicating with. <P>No one else has agreed with your definition. Not that that always makes you wrong, I am just saying take a look and listen to others on this thread and other resources.<P>Call up one of the guides at RMI, Mountain Madness, or AAI and see what they say. Who knows maybe they changed the definition and everyone else on this thread has been so busy climbing, we forgot our style of climbing....<P>Either way good luck,

"The discipline of mountain climbing originated in the French Alps, so the word "alpinism" derives from the French root "alp". Alpine style is mountain climbing reduced to it's purest essence, and extreme alpinism takes us to the cutting edge of that style. Alpine style means attempting to climb mountians on the most equitable footing possible, neither applying excessive technology to overcome deficits in skill or courage nor using permenently damaging tactics, and adhering to this ethos from begining to end. It means being equal to the challenge imposed by the natural state of the mountain."<P>Exerpt from the introduction to "Extreme Alpinism", by Mr. Mark Twight. <P>I don't endorse off subject replys, especially to my own topic but, I just finished reading the book for the second time and it was fresh on my mind.<P>It seems to me that Mr. Twight would agree that the campers at Muir are not climbing "alpine style" according to the definition he gives. IMO They don't seem to be climbing expedition style either, just safe and sane.

Well if he had defined it differently he wouldn't have had much to write about would he? <P>What does he mean by excess technology anyways? Obviously bolts, oxygen and filmmaking equipment, but not powershield, scholler or XCR, single wall tents or GU. It's a fine line when you are the extremest of the xtreme!

As leader of this expedition, I am obliged to charge 60,000 clams to short haul all of you to the summit and back.

the nice thing about x-treme is that it is currently on sale at your local rei, nissan dealer, cable box and the internet. for the one low payment of $420.69 you can buy all the x-treme you want. i currently have x-tra x-treme in several flavors and sizes....from brass all the way up to ti-chromium-vanduim or something....<P>i even have the special mt. rainier version back by popular demand! included is a short rope, sticker and patch that is removable when you get into the next sick fad!<P><p>[This message has been edited by erik (edited 06-12-2001).]

We only render payment in green plants. ScottP if that is acceptable name your price.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bronco:<BR><B>"The discipline of mountain climbing originated in the French Alps, so the word "alpinism" derives from the French root "alp". Alpine style is mountain climbing reduced to it's purest essence, and extreme alpinism takes us to the cutting edge of that style. Alpine style means attempting to climb mountians on the most equitable footing possible, neither applying excessive technology to overcome deficits in skill or courage nor using permenently damaging tactics, and adhering to this ethos from begining to end. It means being equal to the challenge imposed by the natural state of the mountain."<P>Exerpt from the introduction to "Extreme Alpinism", by Mr. Mark Twight. <P>I don't endorse off subject replys, especially to my own topic but, I just finished reading the book for the second time and it was fresh on my mind.<P>It seems to me that Mr. Twight would agree that the campers at Muir are not climbing "alpine style" according to the definition he gives. IMO They don't seem to be climbing expedition style either, just safe and sane.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I must apologize for my off topic reply. I have been posting to rec.climbing for years and it is the way things are that if one doesn't agree with the contents of a post it is acceptable to post a reply regarding such a discrepancy. In the future I will try to keep my mouth shut unless it pertains to the subject line of the thread.<P>

Thanks ScottP! <P>By the way, my previous post was supposed to be directed at AlpineK regarding the fixed ropes and porters.<P>Your coinsideration is appreciated.

ScottP,<P>I don't think you should hold back dude. I think a certain amount of conflict is good for any discussion. Get's everyone to think. If someone is offended by someone elses opinion then maybe they should go talk to their mommy and tell her how the bad people don't agree with him/her. I'm not very fond of any form of censorship. I say let it all hang out. Well not all...hey..put that away!!

how's this for a definition of "alpine style", it seems to incorporate all the different things that I've always thought were included in the term:<P>one is climbing "alpine style" when in a round trip from your start point (car, telepherique, major basecamp (i.e. where the porters left your gear or where your skiplane landed) you never cover the same terrain more than once while *moving in the same direction.* by my definition, alpine style is about movement, not gear. <P>pitons and bolts aren't disallowed, carrying a lot of either is just usually not practical. you can plan to spend the night. you can leave gear stashed if you know you'll be coming back that way. many famous "alpine style" climbs involve dropping the packs where the climbing route and the descent route converge, and dashing for the summit unencumbered. there's no point in fixing ropes when climbing alpine style, because you will never be climbing the same pitch twice. "single push" climbing a la twight is a sub-set of alpine style. the term "alpine style" originated as a way to differentiate between attempting big peaks in "expedition style" and the approaching them in the same way people might climb at home in the alps, thus weekend climbs in smaller mountains are almost by definition "alpine style".<P>some examples: you leave the cascade pass trailhead to climb johanasberg, beginning your bushwhack straight from the parking lot. after climbing the route, you bivy on the summit, then descend, eventually ending up on the cascade pass trail which takes you back to your car. verdict: alpine style since you never covered the same ground twice.<P>you leave your car at the boston basin trailhead, and hike up to the basin. after spending the night, you leave your tent and sleeping bag, climb the west ridge of forbidden peak, descending the east ledges descent. about halfway back to your camp, you are covering ground that you have covered before, but are moving in the opposite direction. you pick up your gear and head down towards a beer in marblemount. verdict: alpine style because you never covered the same ground while moving in the same direction.<P>consider the rainier expedition style example given earlier. verdict: not alpine style because you climb the muir snowfields and the cleaver in the same direction more than once.<P>$.02

I got it why dont you ask the editors of Rock and Ice and Climbing to explain this definition and also capsule style too.<P>Bottom line is it sounds almost like some sort of bragging rights or one upmanship or something like that. I did it with one boot I did it blindfolded, I did it without an ice axe..... Does anyones else agree on this point? I still like this funny discussion <P>-Cpt

Hey Titsmack, did you carry pickets when you did Rainer "doggie style" or just rely on ice axes for pulling out of the crevase?

forrest_m,<P>Are saying that you must do a traverse to be an alpine ascent? <P>Or am I just not clear on what you mean when you say, the above rainer expedition example is not alpine?<P>Regarding off topic replies, I simply asked what he meant by alpine style. His title was "Alpine style," but then he asked about a single push. This set off a debate, and a healthy one at that over what an "alpine ascent" is.<P>Sorry if the group got off topic. I should have started a seperate thread, but I was trying to clarify what he was asking.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rodchester (edited 06-12-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jblakley:<BR><B>ScottP,<P>I don't think you should hold back dude. I think a certain amount of conflict is good for any discussion. Get's everyone to think. If someone is offended by someone elses opinion then maybe they should go talk to their mommy and tell her how the bad people don't agree with him/her. I'm not very fond of any form of censorship. I say let it all hang out. Well not all...hey..put that away!! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gee...Okay...One last thought...<BR>Alpine -style means fast and light with the intention of doing a route as fast as possible, for safety's sake if not style. You don't set up a camp, you take bivy gear and you use it when and if necessary rather than making a camp TWO of the objectives of a route. The objective is the route with the idea of camping being only a necessary sufferance due to route length.<p>[This message has been edited by ScottP (edited 06-12-2001).]

rodchester - not to be a smartass, but how well did you do on the reading comprehension part of the SAT? what i said was in alpine style you don't move over the same terrain IN THE SAME DIRECTION. thus, rapping, glissading or crawling down the climbing route can be alpine style, since generally descending and climbing are moving in opposite directions. my intention was to emphasize the continuous nature of movement in alpine style as opposed to the back-and-forth that characterizes expedition style.<P>scottp, think you are correct that "light and fast" generally is an attribute of alpine climbing, but that is a result of the continuous movement, not the other way around. I don't think you can define alpine style by the contents of someone's backpack, i.e. a bivy sack is alpine style but a tent is not, . i think you need to make a distinction between people who are simply climbing and people who are pushing their limits (or the limits of the possible). both may be climbing alpine style, it is a very broad category. it is hard to climb in expedition style, it is a lot of work and is very time consuming. almost everything else is alpine style. there are many other shades of "style" and "commitment" and we can split hairs about whether using the huts at muir counts or not, but i think the only essential element is the no-back-and-forth.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by forrest_m (edited 06-12-2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:<BR><B>We only render payment in green plants. ScottP if that is acceptable name your price.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>wow! uh...<BR>what it would take to get me there and back?

Deal and Oh I aint Tshirt man either in case you were wonderin... <P>Call us "Team super high speed , we are gonna summit kuzz we bad ass". I know Bronco will agree. <P>Hey this is fun

Agreed Cavemon.<P>Anybody else think it is humorous that Mr. Gauthier is still "On Belay" while all of us kung foo keyboard masters are "Rope Lead" studs.<BR>

Jman,<BR>I do ok with acclimatization. I do believe the Ginko Bibola helps, and I just add it to my water. <P>Chad Kellogg did it in '98 in 5 hours 6 minutes and 58 seconds (a new record). That is light years faster than both times I did it in a day. My times were around 14 hours and 18 hours car to car, the second time being earlier in the season (this May), and with several naps.<BR>I was on the route the same time Chad was trying for the record (he broke it a week later). The route was longer then when we did it this May--more crevasses to end run, and was less direct, but the snow was firmer.<P>Right now is a good time to do it on the DC, it is more direct now above . One person in our group had trouble with the acclimatization, but the rest of us had trouble with lack of sleep. <P>I wouldn't recommend it to be done this way for everyone. I feel that if you have done the route several times it leaves out any stress about where to go. <P>My fitness level is good, do this stuff almost every weekend, but I personally know several people that can (and do)it faster.<BR>TTT

Actually, ranger kellogg did it in a little over 4 hours( he ran both ways and signed the summit register). He record he holds- believe it or not, he went from paradise to the summit, to muir, to the summit(2), muir, summit(3), muir, summit (4), and back to paradise in just under 24 hours. yikes.:-)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:<BR><B>Deal and Oh I aint Tshirt man either in case you were wonderin... <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know, actually I was thinking, "hmm, iwonderifthatistshirtman."<P>

In recent years I have been doing the Trade routes on Mt. Rainear in a day because its easier and less boring. The way to do it is 15lb pack (including boots), tennis shoes up to the Ingram flats, good weather and an early start. My best time a few years ago was 5hr 30min from car to summit. I have found most people in reasonable good shape can do the DC route in around 7hrs. The only problems is running acrossed RMI beacause of rock fall and because they won't let you pass. This is the way many of the larger peaks in the Rockies and elswhere are done to minimize your exposure to objective dangers: its actually good training.

As for the expedition-super assualt by Team Super-high-speed, I think your dreams of being the first may be been eusurped by the disable gentleman who did it on his "snow-crawler"(read-engineless snowmobile wantabe). <P>They got special permits to camp all over the damn mountain and had a HUGE support group...Dammit my dreams of a FA are squashed......