Buying Gear Online?

Use our price tool to find the best price on any piece or gear or clothing. Purchases using this tool support cc.com.


Supporting Sponsors






CC.com Blog
Be sure to check out the Cascadeclimbers.com Blog for informative posts and reviews written by knowledgeable members.
Click here to read the blog.
Who's Online
11 registered (Good2Go, jtodorovich, ARBrandon, 4 invisible), 75 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Supporting CC.com
Forum Stats
25828 Members
52 Forums
95996 Topics
1122988 Posts

Max Online: 627 @ 12/18/06 12:02 AM
Top TR Contributors
ivan 111
tvashtarkatena 99
off_the_hook 90
danhelmstadter 88
KaskadskyjKozak 86
JasonG 77
telemarker 68
Feck 67
wayne 61
G-spotter 56
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#335055 - 04/14/04 06:30 AM Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
Braumeister Offline
journeyman

Registered: 06/11/02
Posts: 85
TRs: 1 Photos: 7
Loc: Northern Michigan (Flatland He...
The only "autoblock" info. I could find on a search of the forums related to auto-locking mechanical devices such as a Grigri, so perhaps some of you more experienced climbers can lend your comments on the following.

While researching and practicing a Z-rig in my back yard, I noticed a suggested variation in "Glacier Travel & Crevasse Rescue" is to install a "ratcheting auto-block" on the system to better facilitate crevasse rescue. I can see how this would be particularly helpful in a two-man rope team.

The basic premise is to feed the rope through a Sticht-type belay plate at the initial anchor point with a prussik above it. When hauling, the prussik jams against the plate to allow rope movement, but when tension is let off the haul line, the prussik sets itself to hold the victim and give the hauler a rest.

My question is this: is a Sticht-type plate necessary to really make this thing work, or will another device such as an ATC suffice? Has anyone used this system and would you comment on its relevance? Or is this just neat stuff to know but not really necessary?

Thanks!

B.
_________________________
Light, cheap, strong; pick any two.

Top
Help Support CascadeClimbers

Arcteryx Escapa Cap
$30.99
Save 20%


Black Diamond Octane Pack
$103.99
Save 31%


Petzl - Am'D Screwgate
$11.16
Save 20%

Want to browse more deals? Check out our price comparison and deal finder tool!

#335056 - 04/14/04 07:02 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
kurthicks Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 04/22/03
Posts: 2520
TRs: 21 Photos: 316
Loc: Seattle
i carry an ATC for that very purpose. it's totally worth the weight in my opinion.

http://www.rockandice.com/guide%20tip/guide%20tip.z%20pulley.123.html


Edited by wazzumountaineer (04/14/04 07:17 AM)
_________________________
http://www.kurthicks.com

Top
#335057 - 04/14/04 07:59 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
Rodchester Offline
veteran

Registered: 12/21/00
Posts: 1498
TRs: 1 Photos: 0
Loc: Your mom's bed
Do you mean using a sticht plate with a pulley instead of using a prusik minding pulley? If so, that is all it really is, simply a way of preventing the prusik from jamming into the pulley. Yes, it does make things easier, and yes other things besides a sticht plate can be used.
_________________________
Have a nice day.

Top
#335058 - 04/14/04 08:00 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
catbirdseat Offline
Elite Sprayforce Team

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 13214
TRs: 46 Photos: 144
Loc: Costa Mesa, CA
The plate is to prevent the prussik from jamming in the pulley. A Bachman knot can be used instead of a prussik and it tends to self-manage much better if you don't happen to have a plate. Heck, you could cut yourself a prussik minding plate out of a 1/8" aluminum disk. It would be lighter than the Sticht plate.
_________________________
You don't do an encore if you just played Mahler.

Top
#335059 - 04/14/04 08:43 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
fenderfour Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3030
TRs: 13 Photos: 19
It sounds like people don't carry the ATC as standard gear anymore. I would imagine that any tube or plate belay device would work for this purpose. Then you aren't carrying a specialized second piece of gear.
_________________________
Striving for mediocrity

Top
#335060 - 04/14/04 08:56 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
Stefan Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/16/01
Posts: 2173
TRs: 7 Photos: 9
Loc: the circus
Have any of you actually and really used a prussik in a crevasse rescue? They really suck and they are time consuming. They really are. The way to get around the problem of the prussik and the stichtplate is to use an ascender. It's easier. It works better.
_________________________
Namaste - Whatever your outer appearance, I see and greet the soul in you.

Top
#335061 - 04/14/04 09:03 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
fenderfour Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 3030
TRs: 13 Photos: 19
I've used a prusik in practice. If you use your ATC like Braumeister suggested, it's pretty quick and easy. No extra gear, no extra weight. I suppose a Tibloc would be a good compromise for weight.

Plus prusiks can grip icy ropes of any diameter and can be used for other things (v-threads, slings, etc).
_________________________
Striving for mediocrity

Top
#335062 - 04/14/04 09:14 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
Dru Offline
Sick Spray Bird

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 30032
TRs: 29 Photos: 304
Loc: Collapsing State Vector
Quote:

Have any of you actually and really used a prussik in a crevasse rescue? They really suck and they are time consuming. They really are. The way to get around the problem of the prussik and the stichtplate is to use an ascender. It's easier. It works better.




or you can just cut the rope and let crevasse bound partner rescue themselves and then become a famous author and movie star
_________________________
t3h v01d, b1 d3f1n1t10n 4mless, there4 pr3d8s 4ll 4m & w1ll r3m41n

Top
#335063 - 04/14/04 10:02 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
DonnV Offline
member

Registered: 04/30/01
Posts: 128
TRs: 11 Photos: 245
Loc: Vancouver WA
Since you mentioned a 2-man rope team, something else to look at is the Garda knot, which uses 2 carabiners to allow for one-way hoisting. You can pull rope through it one way, but the rope will not slide back , so you don't need a prusik to hold the rope when it's time to reset your Z. The cost is that it adds considerable friction over a decent pulley, although I've practiced with it and the friction didn't seem that bad. No reason to use it if there are plenty of pulleys and prusiks available, but it's worth knowing and trying out sometime in practice, especially if you do travel in 2-man parties. I first ran across it as part of a 2-man system called the Canadian Drop Loop System, described in the Falcon book called "Glaciers! The Art of Travel and the Science of Rescue".

Top
#335064 - 04/14/04 11:25 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
catbirdseat Offline
Elite Sprayforce Team

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 13214
TRs: 46 Photos: 144
Loc: Costa Mesa, CA
You can use the rope with a Garda knot instead of a foot prussik, but it is only good for one foot, and if you want to take off your pack and let it dangle from the bight of rope, this wouldn't work.

I'd say it is more appropriate as a rock climbing rescue technique where you don't have a pack to deal with, and you don't put prussiks on the rope in advance.
_________________________
You don't do an encore if you just played Mahler.

Top
#335065 - 04/14/04 12:05 PM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
Alpinfox Offline
Tebow Believer

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 5220
TRs: 22 Photos: 320

Tiblocs are perfect for crevasse rescue. They are lightweight, fast to setup, autoblocking, quickly resettable, and work beautifully. It's good to know how to make a prusik Z-rig, but once you use tiblocs, you'll always carry them instead.

Check out diagram 3c on the tibloc info sheet and note that you can put a pulley on the "lower" carabiner to reduce friction (I always do this, I don't know why Petzl doesn't show one).

Petzl Tibloc info

p.s. and "Prusik" is the correct spelling You would think CBS of all folks would get that right!


Edited by Alpinfox (04/14/04 12:06 PM)
_________________________
let's spank this pony and see where she goes

Top
#335066 - 04/15/04 10:11 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
catbirdseat Offline
Elite Sprayforce Team

Registered: 10/09/02
Posts: 13214
TRs: 46 Photos: 144
Loc: Costa Mesa, CA
I don't think there is one accepted spelling. I've seen it both ways. And besides on cc.com spelling is all relative.
_________________________
You don't do an encore if you just played Mahler.

Top
#335067 - 04/15/04 10:16 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
iain Offline
Spray Master

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 11630
TRs: 13 Photos: 7
Loc: Bend, OR
I bet Dr. Karl Prusik would think otherwise. Though he probably doesn't care that much, as he wasn't engaging in all this geek crap and was actually out in the caves and hills.

Top
#335068 - 04/15/04 10:33 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
swaterfall Offline
addicted to cc.com

Registered: 12/18/03
Posts: 483
TRs: 2 Photos: 128
Loc: inverted
So for glacier travel are you using two tiblocs? One for your harness and one for your feet loops?

Top
#335069 - 04/15/04 11:00 AM Re: Z-rig w/ belay plate autoblock
Alpinfox Offline
Tebow Believer

Registered: 03/05/02
Posts: 5220
TRs: 22 Photos: 320
Swaterfall,
I use a tibloc for my foot loop (texas prusik-type setup) which I keep tucked in my jacket or harness and a regular prusik knot for my waist prusik which I keep attached to my harness. Why not a tibloc on the waist prusik you ask? Because tiblocs tend to slip down the rope while hiking on the glacier. This gets annoying and is dangerous because the tibloc can work itself far enough away from you that if you or a partner were to fall, the weight would come onto your waist-prusik-tibloc-setup rather than the rope tied to your harness. You DO NOT want to take a dynamic fall on a tibloc. It can severly damage, if not sheer the rope completely. Having the standard prusik on the waist loop (above the foot prusik) holds everything in place. I carry my second tibloc on a locking oval biner on my harness, ready to slap on an anchor in the event someone falls and I need to yard 'em out of a hole. Oval biners are prefered for tiblocs and pulleys, and I feel more comfortable with lockers on the anchor position.

I do recommend knowing how to do the standard prusik setup as well as using slings instead of perlon. It's good to have a big bag of tricks, but the tibloc setup is the best in my opinion.

Cheers,
-AF


Edited by Alpinfox (04/15/04 12:11 PM)
_________________________
let's spank this pony and see where she goes

Top



Moderator:  Feck, JayB, jon, mattp, Off_White, Peter_Puget 
© 2000-10 cascadeclimbers.com · Cookies · Board Rules · Mark all read ·
Powered by UBB.threads™ · Pimped by: Chinooktc · Top