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#1139605 - 06/03/15 02:12 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Choada_Boy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 2432
TRs: 4 Photos: 39
Loc: Your Mom's House
Bullshit. Dawg walks the walk! Here's a pic of the Dawg and Pope sticking up for what they stand for and battling the Bolt King and the Mummy.


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#1139612 - 06/03/15 03:28 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: glassgowkiss]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!
Originally Posted By: glassgowkiss

Contrary to your intended statement, this picture actually applies to you. Raindawg is talking shit, which he can't back up with his climbing ability.



What amazes me is that you equate climbing ability with the ability to voice your opinion or have a say on a matter.

In this case then...only people with wealth have a say, only famous people have a say, and finally only corruption is allowed to speak?

Sorry state of affairs if this is how you perceive this topic and other people.

_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139619 - 06/03/15 06:52 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: chirp]
glassgowkiss Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 3961
TRs: 3 Photos: 81
Loc: in the gutter
Originally Posted By: chirp
What amazes me is that you equate climbing ability with the ability to voice your opinion or have a say on a matter.


I think you are mistaking an opinion in general, with a comment made about climbing style on particular route.
_________________________
Nemesis: "a righteous infliction of retribution, manifested by an appropriate agent..."

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#1139621 - 06/03/15 07:34 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: glassgowkiss]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!
Originally Posted By: glassgowkiss
Originally Posted By: chirp
What amazes me is that you equate climbing ability with the ability to voice your opinion or have a say on a matter.


I think you are mistaking an opinion in general, with a comment made about climbing style on particular route.


_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139625 - 06/03/15 09:08 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
glassgowkiss Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 3961
TRs: 3 Photos: 81
Loc: in the gutter
dude, if you even want to be remotely taken into consideration in this exchange, stop posting stupid pictures as a reply, and use written language as most adults do.
_________________________
Nemesis: "a righteous infliction of retribution, manifested by an appropriate agent..."

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#1139627 - 06/03/15 09:26 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: glassgowkiss]
Raindawg Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 1297
TRs: 0 Photos: 40
Loc: Exit 39
Originally Posted By: glassgowkiss
Raindawg- T-A=0. I will pay you $200 if you free climb while placing gear on lead on Numbah10. And yes, your ascent will have to get verified. Basically, I am calling your bullshit.


Haven't heard that kind of bet since I was 9 years old at recess during 4th grade, or later by adult clowns on cc.com who can't deal with the philosophy of the issues. You obviously missed the point. It doesn't matter if I'm in a wheelchair or can climb 5.18......what I have to say stands on its own principle. I don't really care if it's ever free-climbed, but forcing it by adding a line of bolts next to a crack is disrespectful and narcissistic. Plenty of that around here!
P.S. And "Choada-Boy"...enjoy the schoolyard dog-pile....it's expected.
_________________________
DWAYNER SAYS : BOOO BOOO BOOOOO BOOOO

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#1139629 - 06/03/15 09:46 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Choada_Boy]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1598
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Originally Posted By: Choada_Boy
Bullshit....



I don't know what it is but for some subtle reason this image seems to be photoshopped. Maybe not but it's just a feeling.
_________________________
Temporary Eternity

this message doesn't say anything but it's too late to stop reading it

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#1139635 - 06/03/15 10:33 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: glassgowkiss]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!
Originally Posted By: glassgowkiss
dude, if you even want to be remotely taken into consideration in this exchange, stop posting stupid pictures as a reply, and use written language as most adults do.


I tried...you did not seem to understand.

wave
_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139641 - 06/04/15 07:18 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Raindawg]
glassgowkiss Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 3961
TRs: 3 Photos: 81
Loc: in the gutter
Originally Posted By: Raindawg
Originally Posted By: glassgowkiss
Raindawg- T-A=0. I will pay you $200 if you free climb while placing gear on lead on Numbah10. And yes, your ascent will have to get verified. Basically, I am calling your bullshit.


Haven't heard that kind of bet since I was 9 years old at recess during 4th grade, or later by adult clowns on cc.com who can't deal with the philosophy of the issues. You obviously missed the point. It doesn't matter if I'm in a wheelchair or can climb 5.18......what I have to say stands on its own principle. I don't really care if it's ever free-climbed, but forcing it by adding a line of bolts next to a crack is disrespectful and narcissistic. Plenty of that around here!
P.S. And "Choada-Boy"...enjoy the schoolyard dog-pile....it's expected.


Comparing to 9 year old- well buddy, I just called your bullshit, now you are backpedaling like a 9 year old caught lying to his parents. The fact is you said this particular route can be done on lead, free climbed with natural gear, and I responded if you think so, show the rest of us how it's done or shut the fuck up. All you do is spew nonsense, but yet you have zero track record of ability to back up your statements. So if you think Numbah10 is a bolted crack, please lead it (free) without clipping the bolts. If your ascent is confirmed, I will personally remove the bolts and pay you $200 for the ascent. Now I don't want to see more spray on your part and backpedaling bullshit. All I want to see is a report stating you have done so. Otherwise I consider this topic closed, with no further need to waste bandwidth on utterly unproductive spray.
_________________________
Nemesis: "a righteous infliction of retribution, manifested by an appropriate agent..."

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#1139651 - 06/04/15 10:12 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: glassgowkiss]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!

You are one toxic dude, a sad representative of todays climbing/world community.

wave
_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139653 - 06/04/15 11:13 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
glassgowkiss Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 3961
TRs: 3 Photos: 81
Loc: in the gutter
Chip, you have it backwards. The fact I am not joining your circle jerk doesn't make my person toxic, obviously you are totally passive aggressive person, having hard time coping with reality of life. I am done talking to the clowns like you. My advise here is go and climb something, enjoy your life , put up a route, repeat a route, instead of beat your chest in internet. If you or Raindawg can do this route, lead by example, lead it with no bolts. I will remove them after your ascent. Other wise shut the fuck up and start posting in spray, because honestly that is where your reply belong.
_________________________
Nemesis: "a righteous infliction of retribution, manifested by an appropriate agent..."

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#1139656 - 06/04/15 12:09 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Choada_Boy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 2432
TRs: 4 Photos: 39
Loc: Your Mom's House
Chirp's a good guy. He shit all over Dean Potter right after the news of his death, then posted himself a sweet mea culpa. All's well.

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#1139679 - 06/04/15 09:15 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Choada_Boy]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!
argue wave
_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139769 - 06/08/15 12:23 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
soulreaper Offline
journeyman

Registered: 07/20/05
Posts: 70
TRs: 2 Photos: 0
The banal and sophomoric banter on this thread has obfuscated a simple but important consideration: as climbers to what extent is it acceptable to remove vegetation such as trees as a convenience to our user group? This isn't a black and white, yes or no issue; there is a difference between pruning back some branches that have grown towards the wall and topping a tree simply to facilitate climbing a new route. Similarly, there is a difference between removing a dead or dying snag that poses a threat to those below and removing all trees and bushes within a 30 foot radius at the base of a cliff simply so that one doesn't have to belay with vegetation brushing against him. An analogous issue is to be found on trails, where 'sufficient' maintenance means different things to different people and it's not uncommon to see a pair of loppers wielded willy-nilly against any and all vegetation that even considers infringing on the human right-of-way.

A similar trend can be found in route development, especially where bolts are used. Index has seen a recent proliferation of development in some zones and the modern bolting aesthetic is sometimes out of proportion to necessity, much like the removal of vegetation. As we know, debating bolting aesthetics on the internet is often an exercise in futility. Many take a hardline, Manichean stance on bolting; either all bolts are bad or no route should be without enough bolts to be accessible to any suitor. As with all polarizing arguments, this too falls well short of an acceptable solution to the question of bolting.

The reality of all forms of impact that climbers create, be it bolting crags, cutting trails or removing vegetation for reasons of convenience, is that modern climbers are taking a more and more utilitarian view of the places we climb. Rather than seeing the outdoors as an essential space for adventure and personal development, it becomes another quantifiable resource; ergo, climbing is more about having a well-controlled and curated experience that it is about casting off into the unknown with the goals of gaining personal knowledge and experience. Guidebooks curate the experience while heavy development of the climbing environment is a method of controlling for as many factors as possible to homogenize the experience.

Some of the evidence for this mentality includes the typical scene at Index that finds many toproping climbs extensively before attempting a lead, even on climbs that protect as well as climbing possibly can. Rather than consider this tangential to the question of tree removal, to me it's integral to the question of aesthetic and ethics in climbing; if the esprit de corps of the climbing community condenses around the idea that climbing and therefore climbing areas should be as accessible and predictable as possible, then excesses in unnecessary bolting and tree removal are to be expected.

Finally, there will never be a hard and fast rule for either practice, especially at Index. However, we need to closely consider the ramifications of our actions. How do bolt lines with ludicrous three foot spacing appear aesthetically? What about lifeless stumps, for instance above Thin Fingers where clipping the anchor used to mean standing among evergreen branches waving in the breeze? If we choose consistently to allow perceived risk to drive us to myopic overprotective tendencies, we enter a dangerous territory that defiles all that climbing has stood for previously.

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#1139919 - 06/10/15 10:54 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: soulreaper]
Raindawg Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 1297
TRs: 0 Photos: 40
Loc: Exit 39
If you interested in the ethics of cutting down trees at climbing areas you should probably read about this now famous example:

http://www.climbing.com/news/joe-kinder-...tting-incident/

P.S. And so what if these particular trees were officially "special"...it goes beyond that to invite climbers to think about why they think they're so special.

A short excerpt from the article:

"[Bernie] LaForest commented on the importance of the issue to him, as a local climber, ďThe cutting of these two trees isnít going to cripple the planet, but when do you, as an individual, take a stand? I feel that as a professional athlete, especially in sports that are so married to the outside world, itís your obligation to not only push the progression of the sport but more importantly be a steward to the places that you do your business.Ē

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#1139924 - 06/11/15 08:03 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Raindawg]
Choada_Boy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 2432
TRs: 4 Photos: 39
Loc: Your Mom's House
Another short excerpt:

"Following the incident, Kinder received death threats, hate messages, and antagonizing phone calls from complete strangers."

Surely, the correct way to handle the situation. Post the guy's personal information online so the whole trollverse can shit all over his life, because he cut down a tree.

Meanwhile, you and your ilk stick to your guns, continuing your argument by using electricity from nonrenewable resources on an overpopulated planet while the fusion pressure in the Sun continues to increase, allowing it to eventually expand and engulf the inner planets, including the Earth, and the trees on the Lower Town Wall, next to the railroad tracks, and the highway. Totally.

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#1139931 - 06/11/15 10:22 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Choada_Boy]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!
Have you always had this problem CB?
All we want to do is climb and "respect the resource"...apparently that term is unfamiliar with you.

_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139936 - 06/11/15 10:58 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: chirp]
JasonG Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 10/12/00
Posts: 2794
TRs: 107 Photos: 1811
Loc: Mount Vernon
For some the tree removal is a big deal, for others they couldn't care less, and nobody is going to budge.

But this is pretty entertaining.....
_________________________
<><

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#1139938 - 06/11/15 11:26 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: chirp]
Choada_Boy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 2432
TRs: 4 Photos: 39
Loc: Your Mom's House
Originally Posted By: chirp
Have you always had this problem CB?
All we want to do is climb and "respect the resource"...apparently that term is unfamiliar with you.



Yes. I have always had this problem.

The conundrum that you face is that if you "climb" you automatically disrespect "the resource". Unless you walk to the crag and free solo.

People argue for the tree that is being cut down after driving a car to the crag and pulling out a rope and gear made from petroleum and extracted minerals as they participate in an activity that serves no social good. Climbing is not a noble cause, it is an inherently selfish endeavor. It is a waste of energy resources and it destroys the environment, period.

But people want to argue over trees and bolts.

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#1139939 - 06/11/15 11:56 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Choada_Boy]
JasonG Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 10/12/00
Posts: 2794
TRs: 107 Photos: 1811
Loc: Mount Vernon
You have even more problems than I imagined CB!

Maybe you should try and exercise less so that you don't need to eat so many calories. Even if you're vegan and eat organic, that food is grown on land that used to support abundant fish and wildlife populations.

We all need to go back to the hunter-gathering, barefoot way.
_________________________
<><

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#1139940 - 06/11/15 12:08 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Choada_Boy Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 2432
TRs: 4 Photos: 39
Loc: Your Mom's House
Paleo-Climbing, nude, in your Vibram Five Fingers. The only way to go. We must save Gaia. Save the trees. No bolts, gear only, ground up. Climb hard, or climb tard.


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#1139941 - 06/11/15 12:29 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: JasonG]
num1mc Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 709
TRs: 0 Photos: 45
Originally Posted By: JasonG


We all need to go back to the hunter-gathering, barefoot way.






Edited by num1mc (06/11/15 12:29 PM)

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#1139965 - 06/11/15 07:04 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: num1mc]
Raindawg Offline
veteran

Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 1297
TRs: 0 Photos: 40
Loc: Exit 39
Some folks have no problem chopping down living trees to "enhance" their climbing experience while at the same time have a hissy-fit if someone chops their artificial intrusive bolts.
Climbing is no longer the vanguard of environmentalism; it's becoming the vanguard of narcissism.

_________________________
DWAYNER SAYS : BOOO BOOO BOOOOO BOOOO

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#1139967 - 06/11/15 10:11 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
glassgowkiss Offline
spray'prentice

Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 3961
TRs: 3 Photos: 81
Loc: in the gutter
Still haven't seen a report about you sending free Numbah10 on lead on gear. Until then, shut the fuck up.
_________________________
Nemesis: "a righteous infliction of retribution, manifested by an appropriate agent..."

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#1139969 - 06/11/15 10:23 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Raindawg]
olyclimber Offline
☼☼☼☼☼☼☼

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 25324
TRs: 47 Photos: 895
Loc: In Love with You
Originally Posted By: Raindawg
Some folks have no problem chopping down living trees to "enhance" their climbing experience while at the same time have a hissy-fit if someone chops their artificial intrusive bolts.
Climbing is no longer the vanguard of environmentalism; it's becoming the vanguard of narcissism.



The crappy red photoshopped circles offend my sensibilities....as does your opinions! Please remove them to suit my own way of thinking, I would prefer a picture of them rad sporto routes unfettered by your ugly, garish, and clearly uneducated photo editing.

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