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#1139106 - 05/21/15 09:59 AM Logging at Index Lower Town Wall
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Someone is cutting all the trees at the top of Thin Fingers on the LTW. And in the years since the LTW was purchased to make a park I've seen an increase in this "on the down low" "logging".

Is this really necessary? I thought this was a public park? Is it still private and people are trying to do this while it's still legal?

Aren't there any other options? Like cleaning once or twice a year? Or having a route gain popularity so that just climbing it keeps it clean?

The main tree in question in this case is one big evergreen. I've seen it when just the branches facing the cliff are pruned so that the tree can continue to live and keep the look that makes the LTW a thing of beauty.

Or we can have just one big ugly clear cut. I find it objectionable that this is being done without the input of the climbing community. After all it was the community that pitched in together and bought the property, and now someone wants to go and kill a bunch of trees without a community consensus.
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#1139122 - 05/21/15 12:46 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
OlympicMtnBoy Offline
Marilyn Monroe

Registered: 09/23/03
Posts: 1295
TRs: 39 Photos: 79
Loc: Kirkland (Seattle)
I haven't been to the top of Thin Fingers lately but I like those trees up there, they are part of the Index experience. Please don't cut them down!

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#1139184 - 05/22/15 05:20 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: OlympicMtnBoy]
derekpearson Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 14
TRs: 1 Photos: 2
.........


Edited by derekpearson (05/26/15 07:03 PM)

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#1139199 - 05/22/15 09:47 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: derekpearson]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!
Originally Posted By: derekpearson
I think you are blowing this wayyyyy out of proportion. Do you do route maintenance? I don't think you realize how much work goes on at index for the greater good of climbing . I could give a shit about some trees or who cuts them .


moondance wave


Edited by chirp (05/22/15 11:49 PM)
Edit Reason: Midge Krystal Flash rootbeer
_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139208 - 05/23/15 07:11 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: derekpearson]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Originally Posted By: derekpearson
I think you are blowing this wayyyyy out of proportion. Do you do route maintenance? I don't think you realize how much work goes on at index for the greater good of climbing . I could give a shit about some trees or who cuts them .


I understand that some people don't care about other living things. Especially when it comes to their own inconvenience.

I'd be glad to commit to keep this area clean that's affected by this big tree. And I have done route maintenance at Index in the past. Including hand drilling the bolt ladder on the start to City Park among other things.

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#1139210 - 05/23/15 09:11 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Rad Online   content
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 2454
TRs: 28 Photos: 760
Loc: The Emerald City
Cutting trees is not the same as scraping moss and pine needles out of cracks. There are cases where it makes sense, cases where it clearly doesn't, and a continuum in between.

Perhaps more importantly, the day is coming soon when Index will be a State Park and it will not be possible to just do whatever the f##k we want without consulting anyone. For that type of freedom you'll have to develop crags on your own land. Right now the property is owned by the Climber's Coalition, so you should seek permission from them for any projects beyond basic gardening.
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#1139212 - 05/23/15 09:43 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
num1mc Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 709
TRs: 0 Photos: 45
Alan Kearney had a letter in Climbing in 1984 when the first big round of logging happened by Terry and crew.

We all seem to have survived.

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#1139217 - 05/23/15 10:30 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: num1mc]
chirp Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/16/02
Posts: 1832
TRs: 0 Photos: 91
Loc: East Side Baby!
WWDCD?

_________________________
Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"
-Will Rogers

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#1139219 - 05/23/15 10:49 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Gypsylogger Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 6
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Index
;-)


Edited by Gypsylogger (05/26/15 11:39 AM)
_________________________
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#1139221 - 05/23/15 11:00 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: num1mc]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
If the cause of cutting down trees is so just then why does it have to be conducted "on the down low"?

An evergreen doesn't drop that many needles on a yearly basis. The amount that had to be cleaned on the pitch above Thin Fingers was probably a decade of accumulation. Something that could easily be cleaned on an annual or bi-annual basis. Something that could even stay clean just from being climbed. Something that could have at least been tried to see if it would work.

But instead now the irreversible has happened.

Yeah, because Index was clear cut in the past, that makes it okay to now clear cut the lower town wall of every tree that's under 10".
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#1139222 - 05/23/15 11:02 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Gypsylogger]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Originally Posted By: Gypsylogger
THIS was discussed, YOU just weren't part of the discussion....sincerely........Gypsy Logger.


and that is unfortunate. I wasn't aware of any discussion to log Index. If I'd know I would have been there.
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#1139223 - 05/23/15 11:16 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Gypsylogger]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Originally Posted By: Gypsylogger
You guys are just excited because you have something to complain about from your cozy couch. The fact is........If you were going to do something about it, IT would have already been done, and not overgrown by decades of neglect, Aside from the trees, was a massive piece of granite balanced on a ledge just waiting for a lucky customer. There are a bunch of great moderate multi-pitch routes up there buried, and just scrubbing won't accomplish anything. I didn't come up with the idea to open this area up all on my own. AND, as you stated in your original message, nothing was done illegally. THIS was discussed, YOU just weren't part of the discussion....sincerely........Gypsy Logger.



I'm not excited right now, I'm hella bummed out.

I don't own a couch and I don't sit around very much, I'm on my feet at work right now.

So this was discussed. How many people? Was there any kind of vote?

The offer still stands to keep any area next to trees clean on the lower town wall.
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#1139226 - 05/23/15 12:50 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Gypsylogger Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 6
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Index
........😳


Edited by Gypsylogger (05/26/15 11:42 AM)
_________________________
"Gypsy Logger Dead-Zone"

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#1139229 - 05/23/15 02:13 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Gypsylogger]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Originally Posted By: Gypsylogger
Two tree's and now I'm Clear-Cutting!!!!!!!

Yeah ok........if you want to help clean the wall than get up here and do it, or do you need recognition from others?


I'm trying to be diplomatic, why are you so hostile? It's more than 2 trees, it's been going on since the property sold.

If there's a viable alternative to cutting down trees that many will say enhances the aesthetics and the view then why do you object?

There's some things I've been meaning to do at the LTW anyway...
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#1139230 - 05/23/15 03:22 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Gypsylogger Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 6
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Index
........💭


Edited by Gypsylogger (05/26/15 11:43 AM)
_________________________
"Gypsy Logger Dead-Zone"

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#1139234 - 05/23/15 05:46 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
derekpearson Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 14
TRs: 1 Photos: 2
...........


Edited by derekpearson (05/26/15 08:25 PM)

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#1139235 - 05/23/15 06:34 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: derekpearson]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Originally Posted By: derekpearson


Someone is not cutting "all" the trees
Thin fingers is already popular
Freedom fighter was lost in the brush , and the rock came before the saplings and brush. And that's a good reason to me.


At the rate it's going it would be all the trees on the wall.

and a 30' to 40' evergreen is not a sapling, especially on a rock wall, because they grow slower there. Mother nature's banzais.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat. Evergreens don't dump that much stuff in the short term (annual).

I've been climbing at Index since 1993 and never had a problem including the one up against Breakfast of Champions.
How many hundreds or thousands of times has that been climbed without a problem, and now suddenly it's a problem?

I think it's just someone that doesn't appreciate trees at all, and just wants the lower wall to be a dead zone. Hey this area is for climbing, no other living things allowed. And people that appreciate natural beauty? Well heck with them, we're here to climb without being inconvenienced.

So if I come out there and help am I going to get mugged and my tires slashed by a gang of gypsy loggers?

They're going to have to rename the route Japanese Gardens, because Japanese gardens have plants in them unlike stripped bare rock. Hey how about "Gypsy Logger Dead Zone"?
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#1139238 - 05/23/15 08:06 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Gypsylogger Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 6
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Index
...........;-)


Edited by Gypsylogger (05/26/15 11:43 AM)
_________________________
"Gypsy Logger Dead-Zone"

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#1139239 - 05/23/15 08:19 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Gypsylogger]
Buckaroo Offline
veteran

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 1597
TRs: 11 Photos: 349
Loc: forced bivy
Originally Posted By: Gypsylogger
Wow, you seriously scare me.;-) I would change my locks if I knew you.;-)


No offense, I'm sure if we met in person we could be friends.

But you trolled me first, "Gypsylogger".
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#1139240 - 05/23/15 08:21 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
Gypsylogger Offline
stranger

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 6
TRs: 0 Photos: 0
Loc: Index
.......;-)


Edited by Gypsylogger (05/26/15 11:44 AM)
_________________________
"Gypsy Logger Dead-Zone"

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#1139243 - 05/23/15 10:53 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
OlympicMtnBoy Offline
Marilyn Monroe

Registered: 09/23/03
Posts: 1295
TRs: 39 Photos: 79
Loc: Kirkland (Seattle)
Trees are on route, climb them with the rock. They make great pro too!

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#1139248 - 05/24/15 09:37 AM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
DRep Offline
addicted to cc.com

Registered: 06/08/07
Posts: 508
TRs: 6 Photos: 62
Loc: Valley of the shadow of crappy...
Thanks for all your hard work Gypsylogger! This shows how route development/cleaning is truly a thankless act. I Can't wait to see what you uncover up there.

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#1139250 - 05/24/15 01:25 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
derekpearson Offline
stranger

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 14
TRs: 1 Photos: 2
.......


Edited by derekpearson (05/26/15 08:26 PM)

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#1139253 - 05/24/15 06:49 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: num1mc]
JonNelson Offline
journeyman

Registered: 09/17/05
Posts: 89
TRs: 3 Photos: 38
Loc: Redmond, WA
Originally Posted By: num1mc
Alan Kearney had a letter in Climbing in 1984 when the first big round of logging happened by Terry and crew.

We all seem to have survived.


The tree-cutting at the base of the LTW in the early 80s was not done by Terry Lien or anyone who climbed with him. The fellow who did that no longer climbs at Index, or at least, I haven't seen or heard anything about him for decades.

Alan's letter (or article?) was as much about cutting at Squamish as at Index.

About the tree cutting back then at Index, the only complaint I ever heard was that the guy didn't clean up. The fact that one could see the wall more clearly and it could dry up more quickly (at the base) generally seemed to go over well with climbers. The same sentiment likely applies as well to trees on and near new routes: do a 100% removal (i.e., even the stump), and nobody complains.

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#1139255 - 05/24/15 10:05 PM Re: Logging at Index Lower Town Wall [Re: Buckaroo]
num1mc Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/06/01
Posts: 709
TRs: 0 Photos: 45
The word at the time was that it was Terry, but you would know, so I'll assume that I'm wrong.

I do remember Alan Kearney's article being specifically and pointedly about Index

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